A film for critique/discussion. High spit vs lower F4U.

[mtnman]

I got into a fight tonight with a higher, faster Spit16, while in my F4U-1A.  Afterward, some questions came up regarding my "unlimited E" and my ability to climb with/out-climb the Spit16.

I'd like to offer up this film in an effort to discuss/critique the fight, and hopefully turn it into a learning experience for any that are interested.  I think there are a few things going on in this fight that a lot of people have trouble understanding or putting to use.  As a trainer, I run into questions on this particular "problem" quite often.

This isn't a fast and furious, super exciting fight.  But I think that may actually help with understanding some of the concepts.

In my case, how did I take a position of starting out lower/slower, and turn it into a co-E situation, and then morph that into being the aggressor myself?  How was I able to climb with/out-climb the spit16?

In my opponents case, what did he do that "helped me out", and what could he have done differently?  He was obviously trying to "play it safe" E-wise.  He had the advantage, and didn't want to squander it by getting careless.  Where's the line between "smart" and overly cautious.  How did conserving his E get him into trouble?  Since he has to spend some of his E to kill me, how can he put that E to better use?  Get the most "bang" for his "buck"?

I'm on my way to bed, I work some goofy hours for the next few nights.  I'll add to this post later, but would love to see some (er, a bunch of) input from others.  Let's teach this guy how to kill me in this situation...

http://www.4shared.com/file/184587550/62e25f90/Dazy_Spit16_long_0405.html

[Boozeman]

Hmm, nice kill.

But to be honest, your opponent had the finesse of a target drone.  Seriously, this had to be one of the worst Spit16 displays i've seen in a long time.   

[cattb]

bummer won't work, i get problem needs to close. I didn't see it but i guess he extended to far. Am I close?

[Big Rat]

Well first off the spits initial advantage was greatest at first meet.  Granted you had about 300mph of speed at first so this would have to have been worn down by keeping you fighting verticle, which with a Spit16 with superior altitude shouldn't have been a problem.  A couple of quick over the top runs, or something that is going to force you to turn level or up, would have burned up enough of your E to make you either have to dive away or make you a slow turning turtle waiting for the spit to do the verticle run on you. This all should be able to be accomplished in about a minute, two at  most  This is what should of happened.  Now what actually happened is the spit was so tentative that it allowed you tol build up E in the form of altitude for a long time, at one point you were only 200 below and co speed, before any sort of offense was shown. So at this point you were co-E, but with the spit on your roughly 6 o clock.  At the point you turned into him, slightly nose down, I was expecting something more verticle out of the spit but instead he helped you out by diving nose low.  This is what every hog driver wants to see, and at the point at which most know they own the fight at this point.  Giving you the nose down and greater inertia of the hog vs the light spit, when he goes back up you simply out zoom climb him.  From this point on you are in control of the fight as long as he stays and fights.  His proper option at this point would have been to extend and try and reset.  But not the case, at this point in the fight he did have slightly more speed, but not enough of a difference to try and do what he did.  He tried to pull an immelman back over the top in which case the hogs superior zoom played in, and it just came down to your gunnery as the gap quickly closed.

I don't know if you wanted an answer from another trainer but I gave it anyway , thought it would be interesting to see if any different views show up.

 
BigRat

[mechanic]

Not the worst spit 16 flying i've seen by a long shot. It was actualy quite patient and well thought out at first. The mistake was in trying to maintain an altitude/energy advantage after initialy dumping all speed. For the spit to kill the hog I would suggest a slightly more aggresive approach in the horizontal not the vertical. Dumping the speed was a good start but after that he seemed to be toying with the F4u. This is all very well and good if he had kept the large E advantage but after dumping his speed it was suicide. The spit16 can have trouble out-turning an f4u at high to medium speeds anyhow, let alone at low speed.
 I could see what the spit wanted to do, he was just not confident enough in himself or his plane's ability to saddle up and thus, threw the fight away.

 On the other hand, the F4u was flown very well. It's all too easy to say what the spit did wrong but the truth is that the F4u was flown to perfection and with complete confidence. Once it became a chase with the spitfire out front there was very little chance it could have gained back any advantage at all.

[stran]

Once it became a chase with the spitfire out front there was very little chance it could have gained back any advantage at all.

the spit was still in the fight at the end(because mtman burned some E for a kill shot which he missed), but he chose to dive well beyond a speed he could sustain and THEN is when he blew his advantage. had he leveled out when he reached his top speed he could have extended infront of the slower accelerating corsair and begin a slow climb to reengage. OR the spit could have looped above the corsair and put pressure on him.

[mechanic]

Perhaps, but from what i saw he was being chased. What with the F4u being a reasonably fast a/c it would have been a long process to get any kind of seperation again. From before that moment the F4u was in the driving seat.

[mtnman]

Hmm, nice kill.

But to be honest, your opponent had the finesse of a target drone.  Seriously, this had to be one of the worst Spit16 displays i've seen in a long time.   

This is the "Help and Training" forum.  Negative comments aren't really going to be conducive to those concepts, are they? 

He didn't fly poorly at all.  He just opened some opportunities for me, while not capitalizing on his.  We're trying to discuss some better options.  Believe it or not, this is a "problem" for a lot of people.  It's a common one that I get approached with, and rather than tackling them all one at a time, I'm hoping we can help more people learn about it here.

[mtnman]

Well first off the spits initial advantage was greatest at first meet.  Granted you had about 300mph of speed at first so this would have to have been worn down by keeping you fighting verticle, which with a Spit16 with superior altitude shouldn't have been a problem.  A couple of quick over the top runs, or something that is going to force you to turn level or up, would have burned up enough of your E to make you either have to dive away or make you a slow turning turtle waiting for the spit to do the verticle run on you. This all should be able to be accomplished in about a minute, two at  most  This is what should of happened.  Now what actually happened is the spit was so tentative that it allowed you tol build up E in the form of altitude for a long time, at one point you were only 200 below and co speed, before any sort of offense was shown. So at this point you were co-E, but with the spit on your roughly 6 o clock.  At the point you turned into him, slightly nose down, I was expecting something more verticle out of the spit but instead he helped you out by diving nose low.  This is what every hog driver wants to see, and at the point at which most know they own the fight at this point.  Giving you the nose down and greater inertia of the hog vs the light spit, when he goes back up you simply out zoom climb him.  From this point on you are in control of the fight as long as he stays and fights.  His proper option at this point would have been to extend and try and reset.  But not the case, at this point in the fight he did have slightly more speed, but not enough of a difference to try and do what he did.  He tried to pull an immelman back over the top in which case the hogs superior zoom played in, and it just came down to your gunnery as the gap quickly closed.

I don't know if you wanted an answer from another trainer but I gave it anyway , thought it would be interesting to see if any different views show up.

 
BigRat

Heck yea!  I want input from anyone!

[mtnman]

Well first off the spits initial advantage was greatest at first meet.  Granted you had about 300mph of speed at first so this would have to have been worn down by keeping you fighting verticle, which with a Spit16 with superior altitude shouldn't have been a problem.  A couple of quick over the top runs, or something that is going to force you to turn level or up, would have burned up enough of your E to make you either have to dive away or make you a slow turning turtle waiting for the spit to do the verticle run on you.

That's a key point I wanted to see.  If you watch the film, you'll see that when he decides to commit, and turns to me, initially he's higher, and equal speed (20 seconds in- 10k 320mph, vs 12k 320mph).  IMO, this is his best opportunity.  He gets another opportunity (possibly two) later on.

He's never really in control of the fight at all, but this is his best shot at taking control.  The reason I say that is that all I need to do is dive away and extend.  That option is there for the entire fight.  Worst case for me is he's too close as I dive, but a few little rolls and slight pulls to get him out of plane and I'm home free.  Speed is my friend in this fight.

Had he opened with a slashing attack here, he could have forced me to turn hard, and forced me to lose altitude to maintain my speed.  IMO, it would be dangerous to over-commit on this attack; it could go to a rolling scissors and he'd be in trouble.  Rather, he should come in aggressively, ready to shoot if an opportunity presents itself, but be ready to zoom up into a hi yo-yo and repeat.  Don't allow himself to go lower than me.  Don't give me time to think too much.  Force me to react to his attack, without putting himself in danger.  If he does that, he'll either pin my to the deck, get me slow enough that his superior acceleration is a big factor, or force me to dive and run.  His acceleration advantage means nothing to me if I'm fast.  It means a LOT if I'm slow.

He doesn't open that way though, so what happens?

I can maintain speed, and even climb.  By 2:10 I'm 13.1K 280mph, he's 13.5K 325.  I'm almost equal E by this point!  Sure, he's behind me.  So what?  I still have the dive away option...  Behind me is OK in my book.  On top of me would be really bad for me though.  Keeping him separated horizontally as much as possible will work to my advantage, and work against him. 

At 2:25 he has another opportunity to slash attack/pressure me.  His timing is just off, and it doesn't pressure me as a result.  This could have been a good opportunity for him too.

2:50- fight is all mine to do with what I want at this point.  I'm 10.2K 403, he's 10.9K 392.  He's exactly where I want him to be.  He cannot maintain this speed in level flight.  If I just stay level I'll extend away.  OR, I could climb (shallow) at say 350mph.  I'll soon be above him.  He can't climb at that speed, but I can...  He cannot catch me, and cannot escape, because I'm faster, and I've "caught up" in alt/E.

Uh-oh, at 3:30... Is he losing interest?  Veering away?  I'd better let him think he can catch me.  Give him a corner to cut, slow myself down a bit...  Perfect, here he comes!  Maybe a merge?  A rolling scissors? (Please!)  Nope.  But, I think I can get a shot off...  Nope, overconfidence on my part.  Could he have capitalized on this?  By 4:20 I've recovered my wits, and am setting up for him.

But!  Here was an opportunity for him!  I was too slow to climb with him!  This could have been set up as a rope by him, or he could have climbed away.  I'd have been forced to level out.  He could have had my high-side again...  He has this same opportunity at about 5:10.  I cannot maintain this type of fight against him.  He can climb away, or try to rope me.

Reversing back (5:20ish) is a bad option for him.  It gives me a guns solution.  It allows me to pressure him.  Diving away is a bad option for him.  It gives me my speed back, where I dominate.  He can't get away, I'm faster...  Then, a shallow climb, above his max level speed (6:20).  Look at his speed fall away.  He can't maintain that...  I'll catch up quickly.  Keeping my nose below him keeps my speed up.  I can maintain this for a long time...  He can't...  He's fighting the F4U's fight...  I'm pressuring him, just by keeping my speed up and following him.  He has to react.  Then a zoom.  He's slower than me.  He won't be able to out-zoom me.

His keys are forcing me to turn sharp/flat.  Get me slow, keep me slow.  BnZ me.  Pressure me.  By not doing that, he allows me to maintain/build E.  If it turns into a level tail chase, it's my fight, unless we're slow.  He can then use his accel and go vertical on me...  His best opportunities for that were at the places I mentioned.  Another possibility is to bleed my speed, and take the fight up/vertical while I'm slow.  He needs to minimize horizontal separation, and try to take a position nearly directly over me.  It's really the only way he can pressure me.

[Boozeman]

This is the "Help and Training" forum.  Negative comments aren't really going to be conducive to those concepts, are they? 

He didn't fly poorly at all.  He just opened some opportunities for me, while not capitalizing on his.  We're trying to discuss some better options.  Believe it or not, this is a "problem" for a lot of people.  It's a common one that I get approached with, and rather than tackling them all one at a time, I'm hoping we can help more people learn about it here.

Well I'm sorry if I my comment sounded negative, it was not my intention by any means. In hindsight I should have taken the time to make a more detailed comment, so i hope you dont mind if i do it now.

Well, I stand by my point that this was poor Spit16 flying, not poor flying in general. If he had been in a P-39, it would have fitted the plane much better,
He flew the Spit16 poorly, because he, in this particular matchup, failed to use any of the Spits strengths against the Hog. Even moreso, he used the Spits weak points on his offensive and defensive moves.

I'll try list his mistakes from the merge on:

1. He almost completely flat-turned after the merge, killing off his e-advantage. Thats not a plane specific error. though.

2. He tried to catch in a long chase, giving up even more energy. He did that twice. Spit cannot catch the Hog there, clearly a plane-specific mistake.

3. As you forced the overshoot (very nice move btw ), he had all the right cards to turn the table again. You invested a lot of e in that move, and you got quite slow behind him. Now he could have used the Spits way superior climbrate to get out of gun-range, and then establish a clear E-advantage quickly. Instead he Split-esses, and tries to outdive you. Again, two severe plane specific-errors and this is the point where he lost the fight.

4. He intitially out-acclererated you in the dive, so he keeps running altough the hog retains the divespeed much better and thus you start catching him. Yet another plane specific mistake.

In my book, this is rather poor flying of the Spit16.


         
   

[The Fugitive]

As far as "spit flying" I have to agree with boozeman, he didn't use the strengths at all in that plane.

He had all the advantages at the start of the fight. On his first pass seeing you did very little in the way of a defensive move nor any kind of attacking move should have told him that he had someone who knew what he was doing, and that his opponent was trying to save "E" as best he could. His first move should have been a bit more aggressive and this would have given him the same info, but with a bit more surety.

From then on he must be more aggressive so as to not let his opponent build the "E" he seems to need, but with the proper caution knowing he had someone who knows what he's doing, to leave him self some outs with hi yo-yos and such. Aggressive caution I guess 

Its a fine line to push the fight hard enough to keep the hog from gaining "E" but not burning so much yourself that you fall into his clutches. On the other hand, if the spitty could shoot like Mtnman can the fight could have been over in the first pass.    I wish I could shoot like that.

[wgmount]

My only wish is to be able to see your films. The last 2 or three you've posted all crash my viewer. I have tried a new download of AH then downloaded all the terrains and got some of my films to work. All my new films work and I've asked in Tech support numerous times but yours still won't work for me. 

[humble]

I'm commenting here as I'm watching...

From memory the other pilot isn't bad at all but is more of a pony driver in my mind. This plays heavily into the initial major mistake (my opinion). The initial attack needs to be very aggressive. either your +E and have control of the fight or you don't. Every second you give the hog only lets him build E and erodes any initial advantage you might have. The initial move had to be vertical with minimum extension and forcing the hog to turn. Basically you need to drive the hog down....

At 1:12 in MT hasn't been pressured at all. Basically fight is over here. Once you give a good hog driver an accurate measure of your E state your dead unless your an ace in your plane of choice. So conceptually the spitty is flying entirely the wrong fight. He needs to take his opponents full measure early and act accordingly. Totally the opposite of flying a pony (as an example). slightly later (1:19?) he totally over reacts to Mt's "twitch"...to me this is a better then avergae stick unsure how to prosocute an attack in the spitty (again much more of a ponyesque response).

If this was in a training environment I'd stop it right here (speaking as a former trainer) and ask him what he's thinking. As a result at 2:50 or so mt has now reached equal footing, if i'm in hog the spitty has gone from being a bogey to being a target at this point. You can even hear the change as Mt comes off of wep...he knows he has complete control at this point. The only chance the spit had to control the fight was early, he is either defensive or not and he needed to find out. He is actually more at risk at the 2:50 mark since mt has his full measure. Even if he was negative E at the initial "merge" mt has no clear measure of relative E state and needs to (again just my opinion) walk a fine line between keeping E vs giving up angles or a low % snap shot. By being passive he is filling in the only piece of information missing (relative E state). I stopped watching here since everything after the 2:50 mark is induced by mt. He took control the moment he saw he had parity and actually "came off the gas" to begin the transition to the end game.

To me this highlights the difference between a pilot with very good plane specific tactics/ACM and once with a much more broad based expertise. There is a big difference between flying a plane (even a spixteen) and flying it to its maximum potential. The moment that the spitty crossed props with the hog he had about a 90 second shot clock to kill it. If the hog is +E then the spits a target (obviously relative pilot skill can alter this) but the spitty can not force a fight regardless. So if the spitty is +E he needs to aggressively pursue a victory even if that entails risk. The same pilot who can reverse/kill him from a disadvantage can and will hunt him down +E. To me this is a very good example of why time in the TA with a trainer is so valuable...you need to have a plan before you engage. Then it just comes down to execution, this is a prime example (IMO) of planning as you go...which rarely if ever works vs a top stick...especially in his favorite ride.

[Hoffman]

My only wish is to be able to see your films. The last 2 or three you've posted all crash my viewer. I have tried a new download of AH then downloaded all the terrains and got some of my films to work. All my new films work and I've asked in Tech support numerous times but yours still won't work for me. 

Are you opening the film itself? Or opening the viewer and then through the viewer opening the film?

I couldn't open films I had just taken, and it was getting very frustrating.  Then I opened just the viewer and it worked, but if I try to go straight from the film file it will error out.