Author Topic: When to use a wing-over properly  (Read 1964 times)

Offline Ardy123

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When to use a wing-over properly
« on: January 02, 2010, 05:45:34 AM »
I often try to sneak this move into fights, cuz its fun. It usually messes things up or just 'resets' the fight where I'm once again merging head on almost. When is the 'proper' time to use a wing-over, ie what situation should I be looking for (in terms of the relationship of my plane to theirs and what acm they are either entering or leaving)?

I know doing things because its 'fun' in a fight is not a very good excuse if your trying to win, but come on... If I can make it look beautiful (in a pilot porn sort-of way) as well as kill the other guy, that would be even better.
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2010, 08:34:27 AM »
Since I dont know what exactly a "wing-over" is could you possibly post a film of a fight where you used it bud?
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Offline humble

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2010, 08:56:49 AM »
The heart of the problem is that you don't ever look to "sneak" a move into a fight because it looks cool or you like it. A "wing over" is nothing other then a vertical change of direction and basically is the end of a rope.

Junky I'm 99% sure this is what ardy is referring to as a wing over. Basically all of the yaks vertical reverses are "wing overs" setting up top down vertical slashing attacks. It gave me a chance to fool around with what I call a vertical two circle fight (others have said that is a technically incorrect description. In my mind the fight is two overlapping circles with me countering his up with my down and then climbing up inside his line of movement so that my circle overlaps his. This allows me to compress the fight such that I can work some snapshots in and keep a measure of vertical capability. In effect I'm doing what I can to contest his control of the situation and present a fight that he might not be as familiar with....
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film51.ahf   

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2010, 10:24:08 AM »
wing·over (wiŋ′ō′vər)

noun

an aerial maneuver in which an airplane enters a steep climbing turn until almost stalled, rolls beyond a vertical bank, then noses down and dives until normal flight is resumed in a direction approximately opposite to the original direction of flight.

-Webster's New World College Dictionary

I use this a lot in certain planes.  Among planes I regularily fly some are very good at it (F6F/FM2) and others are not (Spits).  Flap and/or rudder assist can help if needed.

The proper time to use it is as a vertical reverse against one of those planes that aren't very good at it.  It not only allows you to reverse but to gain seperation since your turn at the top (the wingover) is much tighter than the opponents more circular turn (most likely a high yoyo).

This part: in a direction approximately opposite to the original direction of flight will surprise a lot of guys who won't know how to counter.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2010, 10:46:36 AM »
I think this the same as a hammerhead?

The proper time to use it is as a vertical reverse against one of those planes that aren't very good at it.  It not only allows you to reverse but to gain seperation since your turn at the top (the wingover) is much tighter than the opponents more circular turn (most likely a high yoyo).

this is a maneuver which always left me in the tower scratching my head until I worked out what was going on, as the following plane in a turn fight with a big vertical component it looks like you're following the guy up just fine, getting closer to firing solution then suddenly hes facing you and you cant pull lead. classic corsair vs spit maneuver, the spit thinks he has advantage cus the fights gone vertical, the corsair knows he has the advantage because of his vastly superior rudder authority.

in another thread about IL2 vs AH flight models someone mentioned they thought something was a bit awry with AH's handling at near/sub stall speeds esp hammerheads. I just cannot do a proper hammerhead in a spit, still not sure if its me, the spit modelling, or maybe just that spits dont hammerhead well. thinking about it ive not seen a tight hammerhead performed by a spit in a display, I guess maybe because however capable the spit is, its a fighter not an aerobatic plane.

edit: this is a great example of why recording fights is useful - theres no way you can work out what happened from the cockpit, watching the film in an external view with trails on shows it perfectly.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 10:48:58 AM by RTHolmes »
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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2010, 02:56:09 PM »
I dont see a yak in that film snap. Am i missing something

Offline Ardy123

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2010, 03:09:02 PM »
Snaphook,
Thanks for the film, I didn't not see the yak do any wing-overs in it, just hammer heads. Here is a video of a wing-over.

The difference is that in a wing-over the plane is in the same plain and does not roll upside down. When done properly (which its not in this film), the nose comes around quicker and less e is burned to recover.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/zwnywodo0ad/wingover.ahf
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Offline humble

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2010, 03:30:44 PM »
To me they are functionally the same from an ACM perspective. The key point is the relatively limited use for the maneuver in either form. Basically your attempting to eliminate or minimize any arc at the top of your reverse (my perspective). To me this creates two issues. A lack of control surface authority for a period of time at the top and a very predictable line of travel. So the offset in maximizing E retention is offset by the above. IMO I want to be able to manipulate my lift vector and disguise my intentions rather then showing my hand. If i'm negative E and see a con hang the prop I'll push the nose down and then try and pop up while he's floating.

Another film from today, not exactly on topic but gives you an idea of my thoughts. Here I'm clearly in a +E state and fly a non merge...seeing him pull back over I engage and take the fight up. Here with the bogey topped out shots on the reverses are fine. After the 2nd one I've got no real positional advantage and no real desire to hunt him down if he's dead stick.
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film58.ahf     

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Offline Mace2004

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2010, 03:53:35 PM »
The dictionary has it wrong, or at least incomplete.  A wingover doesn't require an "almost stalled" condition at all.  To further break this down, a wingover is more accurately considered an aerobatic maneuver and it's principal component is roll.  A Hammerhead (an aerobatics term) is similar to a pure vertical reversal in ACM but the predominate motion is in yaw, not roll.  

Variations of "wingovers" occur during ACM including such maneuvers as a high yo-yo, pitchback, or vertical reversal.  Also, in Humbles film there are two versions of a wingover.  The first is the Yak's initial move where he does a high yo-yo.  If you forget Humble and just look at the Yak's flight path you can see him coming in flat, pulling up, overbanking into the turn, and then recovering.  It's really only 90 deg of turn but essentially a wingover type maneuver.  Also, a much better example of a pure wingover is at about 2+25 where both aircraft are extending in opposite directions.  If you watch the film from Humble's position you can see the Yak straightlining away on the deck, and pull up with an overbank to the right.  Turn "tracks" on and you can clearly see these as examples of wingovers in an ACM engagement and neither is near a stalled condition.  That's not to say that it can't happen near stall, it certainly can, especially in a vertical reversal.  I have to disagree with Humble in that I would characterize the majority of the maneuvers as oblique loops since they are, in reality, not separate maneuvers but part of both a vertical looping fight as well as rolling and vertical scissors.  Although these maneuvers include components of wingovers, (primarily a nose up attitude and overbanking) these terms more correctly characterize the fight than does "wingover".

So, that brings us to the OP's original question, "when is the "proper" time to use a wing-over?"  There are several times when a wingover is appropriate.  The Yak's two maneuvers are good examples.  The first (really a high yo-yo) keeps the Yak from overshooting the Corsair's turn radius, converts E to altitude, and creates a longer flight path to control closure and allow the Yak to convert his E to a better position.  The Yak doesn't do this well though.  The Corsair has already completed enough of a turn that it's easy for him to keep the Yak in front of his wingline.  With the Yak's tremendous E advantage (500 mph compared to 300) he could have pulled a more agressive and sustained yo-yo into an almost pure vertical reversal that would have put him directly above the Corsair in which case he could have completely neutralized the Hog's turn rate/radius advantage.  At this point the Yak would only have to roll in the vertical to put his lift vector on the Hog for a better shot opportunity than he had.  

The second example at 2+25 is an outstanding example of a pure wingover and serves a completely different purpose than the yo-yo.  In this case it's the "pitchback" portion of an extension/pitchback maneuver or tactic.  Prior to the wingover, the Yak is on the deck and opening at about 250mph.  He then pulls up and overbanks to the right completing his turn at just under 200mph with a small radius due to his nose high turn but finishes his maneuver nose low and accelerating.  He hits the next merge with about 315mph, 65mph faster than his previous merge.  What he's accomplished is to gain sufficient separation that he can redefine the fight with another merge (although things still don't work out for him).  The wingover allows him to quickly get his nose turned around efficiently by using the vertical while he gains more E than he had at the previous merge.  This type of maneuver is ideal for reversing on an enemy in trail, you just have to make sure that you have sufficient separation to complete the maneuver before the bandit is on you otherwise you'll just present him with a nice planform view of the airplane and a large target.

The vertical reversal is essentially the same animal but under different conditions and usually applies when you have an e or vertical position advantage on your enemy.  Consider it a "wingover" where your initial flight path is vertical rather than horizontal.  It's an outstanding method to reverse your direction of flight from up to down and differs from the others in that it can be very close to stall speed but it doesn't have to be.  For instance, say you're ropeing someone with much less E.  You could still be climbing at 150mph when your opponent stalls out below you.  You should immediately do a reversal to head back down to catch him while he's vulnerable.  If you continue up until you're near stall you're just giving him separation and time to recover and prepare to counter your next attack.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 05:30:32 PM by Mace2004 »
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Offline humble

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2010, 04:03:20 PM »
I appreciate the clarification Mace. In my very simplistic view I generally consider any type of a hi yoyo and beyond to be some flavor of wingover. To me its a reversal of some flavor executed in the vertical with a minimal amount of "turn" involved. Expanding on your comments I thought the yak driver flew a very good fight but was lacking a sound conceptual understanding of his exploitable advantages. He kept on putting himself in excellent position to take total control and then letting me right back in the fight. I tend to view everything very much in relation to relative lift vectors so I get more focused on what a move does vs what it actually is.

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Offline Mace2004

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2010, 04:09:30 PM »
Snaphook,
Thanks for the film, I didn't not see the yak do any wing-overs in it, just hammer heads. Here is a video of a wing-over.

The difference is that in a wing-over the plane is in the same plain and does not roll upside down. When done properly (which its not in this film), the nose comes around quicker and less e is burned to recover.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/zwnywodo0ad/wingover.ahf
This is an excellent example of a Hammerhead, all yaw, no roll.  The term "wingover" comes from the idea that one wing goes up and over the other, in other words more than 90deg angle of bank so the predominant component is roll.  The Hammerhead seems to be a maneuver which is particularly difficult to do successfully in AH for some reason, it's much easier in RL.  The key is to use forward stick to prevent the aircraft from coming over on it's back and turning yaw into roll.
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2010, 07:25:38 PM »
ahh thank you so, my terminology is wrong, I guess I mean hammerheads and not wing-overs.

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Offline MajWoody

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2010, 02:33:21 AM »
Since I dont know what exactly a "wing-over" is could you possibly post a film of a fight where you used it bud?

Junky, you do it all the time. You prolly just don't know that what you're doing is a wingover or pitchback. Every time I've fought you you did it several times.  :salute
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Offline sunfan1121

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2010, 04:32:31 AM »
Here is a film of when me and u were fighting the other night. I use a wingover/hammerhead on you 3 times in this fight, at the 3:40 mark, 4:00, and 4:35. I find it to be most effective in the rolling scissors as I'm at the top of my loop, and the other guy is at the bottom starting to go nose up. Instead of rolling i use a wing over to get a snapshot as you go by. In this particular fight I can't hit squat with a tater, but you can see how it can be effective.
www.dasmuppets.com/public/Suns/wingover.ahf
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 06:18:01 AM by sunfan1121 »
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: When to use a wing-over properly
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2010, 09:35:55 PM »
Junky, you do it all the time. You prolly just don't know that what you're doing is a wingover or pitchback. Every time I've fought you you did it several times.  :salute
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