Dueling vs MA fighting

[uptown]

I've been playing since AH1, flying the P51D most of that time. And I can do fairly well in the mains....most nites  I can even go to furball lake in the DA and bag my limit. But in a 1 on 1 co-alt merge, i just don't know how to pull out a win.

I've flown with and against alot of great squads and have improved greatly...atleast i thought. But i got to thinking that squads were making me sloppy in my flying as I could always depend on a squaddie to get my butt out of trouble. So i quit the squad thing and my SA is alot better now.

In a 1 on 1 with dueling rules i can never figure out what I doing wrong. It's always the same thing. I run out of E and the opponent keeps climbing until he drops on my six. I need advice on what I'm doing wrong.
IMO the MA had taught me alot of bad habits and I'm wanting to break those if possible and become a good 1vs1 fighter.
Is there anyone here that as overcome this kind of problem. If so how?

[waystin2]

I am always overly nervous about staying within the rules in the DA dueling situation.  So much so in fact, I have had my squaddies say "why did you not take that front quarter shot?  You had me..."  Honestly, because I do not know what is considered a HO and therefore bad form in the dueling situation.  To nice maybe?

[SkyRock]

Best if you can get someone who is well versed in acm's, SA, throttle work, angles... and duel them hours upon hours in the DA..... doing good in a 1 vs 1 is much to do about reactionary flying, knowing how to recognize angles, knowing throttle mngmnt and e mngmnt, and being soft on the stick(flying smoothly).  Just find someone who is really good at dueling, and duel them as much as possible, when they beat you, try it a little different, be aggressive in going for shots and moves and keep tweaking your approach until you can beat them once, then build from there.

<S>
Mark

[TequilaChaser]

from your post, it sounds like you are going all in, on the 1st or 2nd merge........you also might be behind the curve ( reacting late to what you see your opponent doing, giving him E and angles advantage )

SkyRock has suggested a good approach at getting better and ridding your bad habits.......

one thing to remember, the better you become, you will eventually get to a point where it would be like the following example:

SkyRock vs TC = SkyRock wins 5 to 0 this day

SkyRock vs TC = TC wins 5 to 0 the next day

if you get my meaning.......  hope this helps ~S~

[dedalos]

What the SkyBrick said.  It comes down to experience.  The more you fight the better you will become at calculating angles, speeds, reacting to the other guys movements etc.  It is really not that complicated.  You look at the other guy and if you can estimate his speed and can estimate where he will be after a few seconds, all you have to do is have your plane pointing there at the right time.  Going to the DA for an hour with someone will equal days of MA experience, so you can build experience fast.  Other than that, there is no secret to teach.  Some basics maybe to save you time but nothing you could not figure out by yourself.

[sunfan1121]

The first thing i would do is save all of your films. It makes it 10x easier to see what your doing wrong by switching over to your opponents plane.  If energy is your problem i would suggest using a dedicated energy merge such as the double Immelman. The Trainers site has good info on the diff merges. http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/acm-merge/acm-merge.htm The merge is the base of the fight. I'd say that 70% of the time the fight is decided on the merge. Hit me up anytime you see me on and i would be glad to go to the TA and show you a few things.

[Saurdaukar]

Glad to see the desire for proper improvement.

May I suggest some reading:

Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering -Robert Shaw

As Suns stated, you will find many people willing to work with you in the DA.  Just ask.

[humble]

The bottom line is pretty simple. An engagement in the MA is most often different then a "duel". Rarely are planes actually co-alt/co-e and often not the same type or load out. "Dueling" is a pretty specialized undertaking and as already mentioned requires a lot of practice to excel in. We have a tremendous group of trainers and a large collection of excellent sticks who excel in that type of combat. I'd recommend spending some time in the TA with any trainer interested in giving you an overview and initial evaluation as a starting point. The 1st thing is to get a feel for what issues exist and what to work on. Then focus on finding guys to work with in the DA. Don't worry about winning, just focus on having fun and trying stuff. Be patient, don't get frustrated and you'll see a huge improvement in a fairly short time frame. I'm far from an uber dueler but certainly happy to spend some time with you in the TA any weekend if your interested...

[dedalos]

The first thing i would do is save all of your films. It makes it 10x easier to see what your doing wrong by switching over to your opponents plane.  If energy is your problem i would suggest using a dedicated energy merge such as the double Immelman. The Trainers site has good info on the diff merges. http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/acm-merge/acm-merge.htm The merge is the base of the fight. I'd say that 70% of the time the fight is decided on the merge. Hit me up anytime you see me on and i would be glad to go to the TA and show you a few things.

This is going to go bad fast lol.  I clicked on the link.

"Now let's take a look at some things in general we would like to try to do during a merge:

Avoid the opponents guns:
A well placed head on shot can quickly end the fight. However, a missed head on attempt by your opponent can be used against them. If you are maneuvering into your post merge turn while your opponent is trying to line up a shot, you've just gained an angles advantage by starting your turn before them.

Not true.  This assumes that the guy going for the HO is clueless.  Given equal skills, the guy going for the HO has the advantage.  He is forcing you to turn and he can see where you are turning too.  He will get position advantage and get a chance to put some BBs in you.  I have some films from testing this with BigHorn somewhere.  Not sure I can find them but we can always try it.


Enter the merge point with your lift vector pointed toward your next turn: (comments)
The sooner you have your lift vector oriented for your next turn, the sooner you can start your turn. However, this is trumped by 1. Your opponents position may force you to avoid their guns before you can orient your lift vector.

Look above.  You are telling your opponent that you are about to turn right or left.  He can use that information against you.


Try to get your opponent to pass through your lift vector at the merge:
This allows you to turn into them, rather than around to them. This also can allow you to start turning before the merge point. This is trumped by 1. and 2. It's not worth attempting if it will commit your lift vector into a turn that you don't want to make, or if you're exposing yourself to guns in the process."

Not sure how you could force me to do that.  Once I see you trying to turn before me, I hit the breaks and let you turn right in front of me for a nice 6 shot.  Half the fights I win are because the bad guy turned too early and just gave me their 6.

Improvise! Don;t fly following a script.  Going for the standard imel at the merge is just death.  Think bout it.  If two guys follow the script and go for an imel at the merge, they will end up head on right after it.  Who is going to win the HO?

[Anaxogoras]

The thing that amazes me about duels is how important an equal load-out can be.  I don't duel often, but the last time I did with sunbatt (lots of fun) we weren't very strict with reupping after one of us was shot down.  Being just ~100 lbs lighter made for a decisive advantage because we were roughly on par in flying skill (both flying the same aircraft).

In the main arena, you rarely have an idea about what your opponent's fuel and load-out status might be.  However, I am far more inclined to look for a 1vs1 fight in the arena when my fuel state is optimal, i.e. not too much and not too little.  Be careful about engaging in a knock-down fight if your aircraft is not at an optimal weight.

[Shuffler]

All very good info and suggestions.

It all boils down to "quality" stick time.

While I'm not a top stick I'd be glad to assist you in the DA. IF you see me on and want to work together, just pm me. We can do any plane you want to work on or any combination of planes. It should give you some film to rifle through in any case.  <S>

[TequilaChaser]

Improvise! Don;t fly following a script.  Going for the standard imel at the merge is just death.  Think bout it.  If two guys follow the script and go for an imel at the merge, they will end up head on right after it.  Who is going to win the HO?

Dedalos, you lost me on this "Script" thing..... where has anyone suggested flying a scripted fight on this thread or even on that ACM-Merge link from the Trainers website?

I agree one should not take different maneuvers and fly 1 or 2 trick pony shows...... or even fly maneuvers they have learned in a "scripted" fashion.......


about flying with optimal fuel/ammo weight? I would always instruct my students to practice/Train with 75% or 50% fuel loads..... so they would have that extra edge of knowledge when and if they had to mix it up like right after taking off....


~S~

[Sonicblu]

Couple of things ive found over the years. When I started I only flew the 190d and the Typh. Bnz'd only didnt know howto turn fight. Don't know how many times I went to the Da only to get shot down the first or second merge. No fight no learning. A few guys are willing to help. This is the problem. Most of the ones that are willing to help dont have a clue on how to verbalize a 3D picture of what to do to get better, it is lots of overgeneralizations. Like read a book on ACM.

Ive been to the TA twice only to get I fly by the seat of my pants I dont know what you are talking about I cant explain it. That was from trainers.

Srry I havent taken the time to try all the trainers. I know from some of his posts Murdr and Badboy can explain properly.

Sometimes I have a problem understanding what they are telling me. So it helps to become an Autodidact.
So you have to teach yourself. USE the film viewer it is your friend don't just watch the film once watch it 20 times from both cons views as well as the outside view. The most important reason for teaching yourself is no fight is static. YOU have to have the ability to TEACH yourself or at least recongnize what is going on on the "fly". The trainer wont be there for you other fights.

This is what I found a way to conserve just a couple percent more E. just a couple percent better flap control and so on. Even 1% better in five areas can mean at least 5% inprovement and most of the time with the better sitcks that is all it takes to make a fight out of it.

What Strokes told me helped me the most of anyone who tried to help me on the DA merge. I see exacly what you are doing here is how to fix it. The next fight was completly different.  For me it was Start making your turns for Energy before you need to. I was simple turning to late. By seconds is all. Start to picture the fight in 3D in your head and project where the fight is going. Turn into where the fight will be. Not where it is.

Im not talking about lead merge.

So here are a few of the big ones in the DA
The rules cheat you sometimes.  Hey co merge on the deck until icon range.  The guy merges under you every time out climbs you and dominates the fight from there. Then they say oh you have to fight to merge under the other guy. Later on review of the film you find them climb out on the way to the fight only to dive down before icon range to the deck getting tons of E. Where you have been flyin deck level to the fight the whole time.

NOt everyone does this the point is it cheats you of learning.

[Blooz]

Another important factor is hardware.

If you've got a killer rig and you're going up against someone that doesn't you've got a good advantage too.

Your computer, the connection, your stick setup (HOTAS lots o' buttons), track IR, rudder pedals, etc... all that stuff makes a huge difference too.

Everything that makes it easier for you to control the game that your opponent doesn't have will help.

[waystin2]

Another important factor is hardware.

If you've got a killer rig and you're going up against someone that doesn't you've got a good advantage too.

Your computer, the connection, your stick setup (HOTAS lots o' buttons), track IR, rudder pedals, etc... all that stuff makes a huge difference too.

Everything that makes it easier for you to control the game that your opponent doesn't have will help.

I never thought about this angle.  So all pilots are not equal in skills, and potentially never could be due to the hardware they have a available or utilize.