Dueling vs MA fighting

[Stiglr]

This is a game, a competition. It pays to increase your skill level dogfighting. In the MAs no matter what you do, B&Z, run, pork, or JABO, at some time or another your going to be the one at a disadvantage. If your the one that prepared for that scenario then you will still have an some advantage. One that the other guy won't realize till probably too late.

Agreed, partially. I say dueling is stupid because, if you "build your skill" only under such artificial, stilted conditions, you won't learn to be flexible enough to deal with the other situations in the arenas or in events.

There are any number of expert duelists who win most of these 1-on-1s at "twenty paces" but are helpless in any situation BUT a co-alt merge where their favorite trick always works for them. They either whine about their "unfair" disadvantage (which they can never reverse because all their fights start "fair") or they whine that they were outnumbered, or say the guy(s) who shot him down only won because of their initial advantage. Well, duh. Maybe the other guys are smarter about setting themselves up with alt or position before they ever spotted you, and had the engagement in the bag from the get go. Or maybe the whiner is dumb enough to attack a pack of planes, rather than waiting for help, or for a situation that he has a good chance to win.

None of these scenarios involve a co-alt, headon merge with no firing HO on first pass. Neither did real life, for the most part. I did read an interesting story of two guys who actually had a duel, with "seconds", during the Spanish Civil War (with the haughty Luftwaffe pilot coming off second best and lucky to get out of there only "wounded" but with his arse still attached); but these were rare.

There's more to winning a fight sometimes than rudder and stick input. Situational awareness can win you a fight before there's a fight... AND can get you out of it when you'd otherwise get yourself killed. So, IMO, SA is 10x more important than a few pet dueling moves.

[thorsim]

what i see missing here, unless i missed it, is fighting your fight ...

at some point you will be the pilot with either more or less e once the difference is established the goals are clear for each ...

until one of you gains a solution on your opponent, the e- pilot playing defense should be forcing his opponent to use more energy achieving a solution than s/he is avoiding that solution, working for a reversal or surviving long enough to exploit a mistake by his opponent.  

conversely the e+ pilot playing offense needs to maintain his energy advantage while working for his solution being patient enough to maintain his advantage while keeping pressure on his opponent hoping to force a mistake he can exploit for a swifter conclusion, never giving his opponent enough room to egress or an opportunity for a reversal.

as the e+ pilot you are in control and anything less than a kill should be considered a disappointment.

the e- player should consider survival and or a draw a victory and not over extend looking for the kill too soon, that is how one gets killed in the rope a dope.  

there is advantage in either situation as the slower plane tends to be more maneuverable and the faster plane is at less risk.  

turning the tables is a matter of playing it smart and being able to exploit a decisive moment in the encounter.

example:

the rope a dope can be used by the e- player to force the e+ player into a predictable dive and a gun solution for the e- player.  you do this by following the climb, but not overly aggressively.  i.e. climb behind your opponent maintaining the lag position advantage and do not fall below a good maneuver speed in your pursuit, at some point your opponent who is likely climbing very hard to entice you to follow in order to pounce when you stall will get very slow himself and the energy relationship will begin to swing in favor of the pursuer when the "e+" player gets slow enough he will either have to disengage or dive, the disengagement is a "victory" for the e- player and the dive will almost always be predictable and offer the e- player a range negating deflection shot since you "know" the path of the diving aircraft you can send the rounds out to meet the unfortunate victim.

knowing the above gets me lots of kills, and helps me avoid even more on either side of the dope ...

hope that all helped

+S+

t

[Raptor]

uptown from your post it sounds like you focus on surviving, meaning maintaining E and speed. This may not be exactly true but just what it sounds like to me. In my opinion if you want to improve, work on surviving at a disadvantage. Keep the P51 low and slow while in the MA. Don't focus on living (avoiding fights or running). If someone gets on your six, see if you can shake them.

My main advice as far as ACM is concerned is keep your eye on the enemy and react to them. By doing this I learned how to dogfight. Later I read articles and information about ACM and realized the moves I have been doing actually had names people talked about in AH.

[Murdr]

Now, open your eyes also and see that the link was posted as help to someone that is not new by any means.  My response was in that context.

BS

And here they come ladies and gentleman  Hehe!
So, lets arm them with something that will get them killed in one turn wondering what happened.
So yeah, lets arm them with something that will get them killed anyway

This tells me you are all about trolling and being disrespectfull and inflamatory.

[Murdr]

Yes, Bighorn.  Whats the question there?  That is the only one that decided to try it with me.  Did I misspell his name or something? 

If you can't see the lack of relevance between the word "basic" and an example beginning with "Bighorn and I (dedalos)" then it's not worth the trouble of explaining.

[dedalos]

BS

This tells me you are all about trolling and being disrespectfull and inflamatory.

I responded in the same manner you did.  It is not a troll and you know it is not BS.  Now pull yourself back together. 

[shreck]

Agreed, partially. I say dueling is stupid because, if you "build your skill" only under such artificial, stilted conditions, you won't learn to be flexible enough to deal with the other situations in the arenas or in events.

There are any number of expert duelists who win most of these 1-on-1s at "twenty paces" but are helpless in any situation BUT a co-alt merge where their favorite trick always works for them. They either whine about their "unfair" disadvantage (which they can never reverse because all their fights start "fair") or they whine that they were outnumbered, or say the guy(s) who shot him down only won because of their initial advantage. Well, duh. Maybe the other guys are smarter about setting themselves up with alt or position before they ever spotted you, and had the engagement in the bag from the get go. Or maybe the whiner is dumb enough to attack a pack of planes, rather than waiting for help, or for a situation that he has a good chance to win.

None of these scenarios involve a co-alt, headon merge with no firing HO on first pass. Neither did real life, for the most part. I did read an interesting story of two guys who actually had a duel, with "seconds", during the Spanish Civil War (with the haughty Luftwaffe pilot coming off second best and lucky to get out of there only "wounded" but with his arse still attached); but these were rare.

There's more to winning a fight sometimes than rudder and stick input. Situational awareness can win you a fight before there's a fight... AND can get you out of it when you'd otherwise get yourself killed. So, IMO, SA is 10x more important than a few pet dueling moves.

You should go duel grizz or SR, they will show you about 25 different ways to pop a cap in dat A-ess ess      

[dedalos]

There are any number of expert duelists who win most of these 1-on-1s at "twenty paces" but are helpless in any situation BUT a co-alt merge where their favorite trick always works for them.

Any examples?

[DrBone1]

You should go duel grizz or SR, they will show you about 25 different ways to pop a cap in dat A-ess ess      

i learned that the hard way 

[bustr]

I have 3 squadies who spend time in the DA with the muppets and other accomplished deulists. JunkyII, Krupinski and Ardy123. I can't beat any of the three 1 vs. 1, and in the MA they hold thier own. I swear Junky in a Ta152 now makes me think I'm watching Grizz. I can tell you from experience that when my squad joins them once in a while in the DA for an evening of dueling fun, the overall skill level for the squad improves because of it in the MA. In the MA when I chat with players who have engaged a trainer for personal ACM lessons they say it made them better at ACM overnight and the game became significantly more enjoyable.

If it's winning only in a P51 and no other issue, see if steve will work with you. Other wise you have Trainers and Master duelists in this post doing everything but blatently yelling "PICK ME, PICK ME... ...". You have more offers to turn you into a baby seal killer than groupies at a Pink Floyd concert waiting for ACID.

[Murdr]

It is not a troll and you know it is not BS.  

Again, just to review your first words...

This is going to go bad fast lol.

And from that to

Now pull yourself back together.

it's crystal clear you have every intention of flamebaiting.

[humble]

Agreed, partially. I say dueling is stupid because, if you "build your skill" only under such artificial, stilted conditions, you won't learn to be flexible enough to deal with the other situations in the arenas or in events.

There are any number of expert duelists who win most of these 1-on-1s at "twenty paces" but are helpless in any situation BUT a co-alt merge where their favorite trick always works for them. They either whine about their "unfair" disadvantage (which they can never reverse because all their fights start "fair") or they whine that they were outnumbered, or say the guy(s) who shot him down only won because of their initial advantage. Well, duh. Maybe the other guys are smarter about setting themselves up with alt or position before they ever spotted you, and had the engagement in the bag from the get go. Or maybe the whiner is dumb enough to attack a pack of planes, rather than waiting for help, or for a situation that he has a good chance to win.

None of these scenarios involve a co-alt, headon merge with no firing HO on first pass. Neither did real life, for the most part. I did read an interesting story of two guys who actually had a duel, with "seconds", during the Spanish Civil War (with the haughty Luftwaffe pilot coming off second best and lucky to get out of there only "wounded" but with his arse still attached); but these were rare.

There's more to winning a fight sometimes than rudder and stick input. Situational awareness can win you a fight before there's a fight... AND can get you out of it when you'd otherwise get yourself killed. So, IMO, SA is 10x more important than a few pet dueling moves.

This is a profoundly misguided statement.

While I can think of more then a few folks who while skilled are quick to run there mouths and many who think they are "uber" but aren't I can not for the life of me think of a single top notch dueler who isn't capable in a furball or MA engagement. No question that "dueling" has a somewhat artificial aspect since its designed to ensure a level playing field. However, nothing that makes someone a good dueler detracts from any ability to fly well in the MA. For every person in the "MA" who can competently fly a 1 on 1 fight there are 10 who just look to engage from advantage exclusively.

[dedalos]

My feelings are hurt

Dude, really, get off my ankle.  You are the only one flaming and bating here.  I bet you already called HT about this but were told that I did not cross the line yet.  You have something to offer to the original posters question or not?  This thread was not about you

[Murdr]

Dude, really, get off my ankle.  You are the only one flaming and bating here.  I bet you already called HT about this but were told that I did not cross the line yet.  You have something to offer to the original posters question or not?  This thread was not about you

I am under no requirement to quietly put up with your @*&%.  So you can either, not reply anymore, stop being an ultra melon with me, or post a civil reply.  Don't matter to me.

[Baumer]

From my perspective there is only one skill that you can't really learn in a 1v1 dual and that is, multiple contact SA.

As the OP stated, there are multiple skills that are not required to be "successful" in the MA's.

So if a new person were to come to Aces High, the likelihood of them becoming a "skilled player" is dramatically better if they dual 1v1 (even with an average dualist) then just flying in the MA's.