Dueling vs MA fighting

[Ack-Ack]

from: Yeager on Yesterday at 11:05:57 PM
I am a proponent of egressing when the situaion clearly calls for it.  The act of endless circular noobal hordling furballing left my bones years ago so I tend to favor flying smart these days.  Its the challenge (oooops...bad word lately) of killing and surviving that gets me motivated.

So your agreeing... it is the pilot.

Not challenging yourself is a challenge?

His 'smart flying' in just like Chalenge's 'smart flying', which is just another word for timid flying.  I've only seen two moves from Yeager...HO on merge and the 2nd move is running like Hell for the nearest friendly or ack after HOing on the merge.  I can honestly say, I have not seen a more timid and worthless opponent in the MW arena than Yeager/Badger/Dawson/Sharps.  If he knows who he's going up against, by his own admission, if will not engage at all if there is even a remote chance of him being shot down.  He claims he runs like that as to not feed the other guy's 'ego' but we all know it's because he's timid.


ack-ack

[Masherbrum]

No, quite an apt analogy. A Hudson is hardly a Yugo. More like a Tempest compared to a A6M2.

You're throwing oranges into my apple comparison.

Just to refresh your memory, a Yugo:

(Image removed from quote.)

Gimme the A6M2 any day of the week.   Typhoons and Tempests can only do one thing well, eliminate "it" and the field has become leveled.    I play this game still for one reason, to challenge myself.   I could EASILY hop in a Tempest, etc and loiter above the fight and cherry pick.   To me, doing that takes zilch in the "skill" dept.   There is no challenge for me doing that.  Am I saying I have "elite skills", absolutely not.   Do I question people who "do this"?   Absolutely.   But I don't air it out on these BBS or on 200, or in game at any time.  

Since joining the WidowMaker's, I've increased my skill set.   I always had the skills, but in my previous endeavors within AH, was never able to take advantage of them.   But, I still push myself in the "inferior rides".   The only time I roll an La7, is from a vultched field.  

Back to my analogy.   Ayrton Senna used his skills and finesse, which eclipsed all but Prost in that season.   Prior to the season, all Media didn't have him winning a single race in that car.  

But this thread lost it's validity about 15 pages ago.  

[grizz441]

Gimme the A6M2 any day of the week.   Typhoons and Tempests can only do one thing well, eliminate "it" and the field has become leveled.    I play this game still for one reason, to challenge myself.   I could EASILY hop in a Tempest, etc and loiter above the fight and cherry pick.   To me, doing that takes zilch in the "skill" dept.   There is no challenge for me doing that.  Am I saying I have "elite skills", absolutely not.   Do I question people who "do this"?   Absolutely.   But I don't air it out on these BBS or on 200, or in game at any time.  

There are strategic elements in the game other than ACM that are worth being involved in.  Winging with a guy or two, flying somewhere you are vastly outnumbered, and killing as many as you can by working together and controlling the fight through good wingman tactics.  This is very fun and challenging in the sense of teamwork, coordination, and timing.  Fights are ever changing and no two are the same.  New obstacles are always thrown your way as soon as you think you have a handle on it.  

Tbh, I could sit in an inferior ride and reverse high bogeys trying to pick me all day long, mindlessly doing the exact same move I learned long ago.  This gets boring, even though it is oh so satisfying when you kill them.  

Still though, I think good winging is something that is not well understood, and poorly executed in the game.  It's not very often you run into a pair of cons that are meshing together so well it seems as soon as you even have a chance to get guns on one of them, the other has gun solution on you.  I'd like to think me and my squaddies are good at it when we focus in, but we probably aren't in comparison to the max potential effectiveness of proper winging.  This is an aspect of the game I'd like to get a lot better at.

[ink]

Humble wrote:
Of course there is. If the game isn't modelled faithfully, then there are any number of game tricks you can pull that will give you an advantage... but if you did the same in a different game that's simply modeled differently... OR in an accurate sim... then perhaps that wouldn't work.

And @ Yeager: if you retreat from a situation where you're outnumbered or know that your chance of survival is slim, that's not necessarily "running"; that's flying smart. It's STAYING when you know you're gonna die that's gaming the game.

"... STAYING when you know you're gonna die that's gaming the game..."         

wow first off you don't really die, so what it the point of "running"? or as you put it "flying smart", please tell me....so you wont virtually die? so you wont ruin your "score"....
  you keep flying "smart"( )

when you want to learn how to really fight, you let me know, I will be more then happy to show you the error of your ways.

[Yeager]

I've only seen two moves from Yeager...HO on merge and the 2nd move is running like Hell for the nearest friendly or ack after HOing on the merge.

 

[SPKmes]

There are strategic elements in the game other than ACM that are worth being involved in.  Winging with a guy or two, flying somewhere
Still though, I think good winging is something that is not well understood, and poorly executed in the game.  It's not very often you run into a pair of cons that are meshing together so well it seems as soon as you even have a chance to get guns on one of them, the other has gun solution on you.  I'd like to think me and my squaddies are good at it when we focus in, but we probably aren't in comparison to the max potential effectiveness of proper winging.  This is an aspect of the game I'd like to get a lot better at.

You guys have been doing this....it seems alot of late..........bullies 

[thorsim]

making an assumption here but if that was you and your boys in the 262s last night in LWB grizz, well done and thanks for the fun

+S+

t

[uptown]

There are strategic elements in the game other than ACM that are worth being involved in.  Winging with a guy or two, flying somewhere you are vastly outnumbered, and killing as many as you can by working together and controlling the fight through good wingman tactics.  This is very fun and challenging in the sense of teamwork, coordination, and timing.  Fights are ever changing and no two are the same.  New obstacles are always thrown your way as soon as you think you have a handle on it.  

Tbh, I could sit in an inferior ride and reverse high bogeys trying to pick me all day long, mindlessly doing the exact same move I learned long ago.  This gets boring, even though it is oh so satisfying when you kill them.  

Still though, I think good winging is something that is not well understood, and poorly executed in the game.  It's not very often you run into a pair of cons that are meshing together so well it seems as soon as you even have a chance to get guns on one of them, the other has gun solution on you.  I'd like to think me and my squaddies are good at it when we focus in, but we probably aren't in comparison to the max potential effectiveness of proper winging.  This is an aspect of the game I'd like to get a lot better at.

I've been in alot of squads and the 412th was the best i've had the pleasure to fly with doing the wingman thing. Saber and MtMan are hell with wings too.

[BnZs]

for the example of turning at 400mph nonsense that was posted ...

a) fights rarely stay above 300mph

*Yawn* Of course they don't stay that fast. The whole idea was dumping speed at an opportune time. The point was that a normal "disadvantage" (bleeding E badly in a high-G turn due to high wingloading) can be used to make that pursuing Spitfire pop out in front and go *boom*.

I'm beginning to wonder if you understand *anything* about ACM except high speed dives on unaware targets.

c) your aircrafts advantages and disadvantages define how you SHOULD approach the fight, if the game allows you to ignore those advantages and disadvantages it is not a very good sim IMO, and a pilot who insists such advantages and disadvantages do not matter sounds unreasonably boastful.

Nothing allows you to "ignore" plane's advantages. You are not going to make your Fw-190 sustain a higher rate of turn than a Spit through sheer force of will, you are not going to make a P-47 out-climb a K4 by thinking light thoughts. What you don't know enough about ACM to understand is that good sticks who win mismatches like this ARE flying their planes to their strengths, or at least towards parts of the envelope where they are not badly out-matched. I will give you a clue: 90% of the time someone claims they were "out-turned" by a vastly less maneuverable plane, what the other pilot actually did was simply manage the geometry of the fight and/or his airspeed better.

[FiLtH]

     Running is more than horizontal separation. It is also vertical separation by using a superior plane's climb. With the numbers in the arenas now, especially in a few key areas where they mass, its hard to go out and fight without getting jumped. Thats why today, so many people prefer being careful.

      I prefer the fight. Even if it gets 2-3 on one, its the challenge that brings me back. You cant make people fly the way you want, or what you want. So you adjust you're style to fight them. Either by being careful, fast, or climbing like a raped ape, or by flying defense and milking them dry and killing them.

     I dont mind hearing the wheels come up, it saves a long boring ride home. If higher scores meant that HTC sent you checks each camp, maybe i'd be interested, but for now I'll put up with all that goes on, in hopes the next flight will be worth remembering.

[mtnman]

I've been in alot of squads and the 412th was the best i've had the pleasure to fly with doing the wingman thing. Saber and MtMan are hell with wings too.

Saber and I don't fly as wingmen though.  We just fly as two lone-wolves somewhat near each other.  To find us working "together" as a "team" is an incredible rarity.  We just have no interest in it. 

There's no way one of us will jump into the other guys fight.  99% of the time, if one of us in a 1 on 1 and another friendly jumps in we'll break out of the fight ourselves, until the friendly dies and we can re-enter 1 on 1.  About the only time I won't break out like that is if I think I'll get killed in the process, or if I'm seconds from a shot solution.

As far as coordinated wingman tactics, about once per month we'll actually decide to fly as a coordinated pair.  That generally lasts until we see the bad guys, and then we just say "Ah, screw it, you're on your own.  Holler if you get swarmed, and I'll try to help you get out of it".  We probably "wing up" for 20-30 minutes per month, and 99% of that time there will be no red guys in sight.

If one of us gets swarmed, then we'll break out the hard-core wing man tactics.  That amounts to one of us saying "Lol, you moron!  Suppose you could use a hand, eh?  Which one is the biggest threat?  Ok, I'm on him".  At which time it turns into each of us fighting as an individual, just doing so right next to the other guy.  We'll communicate as we do it, giving check six's, status updates, etc, but we don't take teamwork seriously at all.

To compare us in any "wingman" discussion just isn't very nice to those guys that actually make an effort to work together.  Our wingman tactics are terrible!

[Shuffler]

Soooo wingless men?   

[Yeager]

Saber and I don't fly as wingmen though.  We just fly as two lone-wolves somewhat near each other.  

I have always referred to this as loose duece winging...basically just adding another set of eyes to the local SA coupled with mutual support when necessary.  It is the most effective method of winging in game I have come across.  Just as long as both elements are capable of basically taking care of themselves.  The historical USAF approach of assigning the lessor skilled pilot to watch the leads tail just never worked well in game for me.  All that approach serves is to give the pursuer a slightly closer tail to shoot at.

[thorsim]

you suggest you think i don't know things when the average stats suggest you are the inferior player ...

you do realize the M in ACM does not stand for moxy don't you ?

*Yawn* Of course they don't stay that fast. The whole idea was dumping speed at an opportune time. The point was that a normal "disadvantage" (bleeding E badly in a high-G turn due to high wingloading) can be used to make that pursuing Spitfire pop out in front and go *boom*.

I'm beginning to wonder if you understand *anything* about ACM except high speed dives on unaware targets.

Nothing allows you to "ignore" plane's advantages. You are not going to make your Fw-190 sustain a higher rate of turn than a Spit through sheer force of will, you are not going to make a P-47 out-climb a K4 by thinking light thoughts. What you don't know enough about ACM to understand is that good sticks who win mismatches like this ARE flying their planes to their strengths, or at least towards parts of the envelope where they are not badly out-matched. I will give you a clue: 90% of the time someone claims they were "out-turned" by a vastly less maneuverable plane, what the other pilot actually did was simply manage the geometry of the fight and/or his airspeed better.

[ink]

you suggest you think i don't know things when the average stats suggest you are the inferior player ...

you do realize the M in ACM does not stand for moxy don't you ?

to think you can judge someone by there "stats" and think they are an inferior stick....well, shows you got a long way to grow.