Dueling vs MA fighting

[TequilaChaser]

thorsim, just a little note on how I am viewing ya'lls jabs at each other.....

I take it you are probably near the same age as me if not older ( I am 42 this may )........

you take things too seriously sometime, and you undoubtly have not realized when someone is just "yanking your chain" to "get a rise out of you" yet, here on these boards......

sometimes it is better to just let things like that blow on thru with the wind, instead of getting all spun up over it......

just a lil personal view....... 

( look forward to our WB matchup, seeya in 2 weeks )

[thorsim]

quite possible TC, my post previous to last was not intended to be taken as me making excuses. 

fact was that for whatever reason (and the alt thing is a good point, as is shufflers about close in) we were both commenting on the A5 and it's handling and i was just sharing my impressions on the match-up.

well trying to share anyway ...

[RufusLeaking]

one point about the duel rules (it never came up vs. TC) the 2.5 distance rule really makes resets in planes like the FWs very difficult. 

It's time to sign up for BaldEagl's THIRD TRI-ANNUAL ACES HIGH II ONE-ON-ONE BRACKET CHAMPIONSHIP TOURNAMENT.

- The intent is for players to remain in close proximity to one another (2-3K max).  That said if at any time the players lose icon range on one another the duel ends immediately and will be re-started using the same planes.  This should allow a dueler to simply turn away from a runner to nullify the duel.

Is there another set of accepted dueling rules out there?  I fly to the BE tournament rules on those rare occasions I can get someone to the DA.

[BnZs]

Heh, I don't really care in what style or how well Thorsim flies, and I have no urge to kick a man when he's down.

Thor, the only thing you do that really annoys is the constant vague implications that something is "wrong" with the Aces High flight model when you do not have the necessary physics to evaluate any sim's flight model.

[dedalos]

WTF ?

can you read ?

i don't duel in any game, but i stepped up and went out of my element in an unfamiliar game against a top pilot and you sit there giving me crap because i post my impressions on things ?

you wanna learn about virtual air combat?  you want some respect from me?  bring your narrow minded self absorbed ego into the s3 and i will give you a mission to accomplish vs. the 31st, 352nd, 4th, 416th and a bunch of other really really good war gamer groups with your team depending on your ability to accomplish the task i set for you.  
no pressure just a couple hundred other guys depending on you coming through.  that is my environment, that is where i thrive.  
you know having to fight where you can't see your enemy coming, where staying alive matters almost as much as accomplishing your mission.  that is my thing, and i am very good at it.

i have not come here demanding respect, however i do not think it unreasonable to expect not to be disrespected just because i feel differently than you about games that have so many different aspects to appreciate, criticize, focus on, and enjoy.  

you sir are narrow minded and insecure to a degree i can not even imagine ...

I have a human level 80 mage.  I think dual arcane and fire specs.  Does that count? 

As BnZ said, just man up and leave the excuses.  You wont even tell me how many rounds you lost.  You want respect, come out and post that TC moped the floors with you and you will get it.  Own him in WB and you will get even more.  What ever the FM may be, you were both using the same one.

[BnZs]

you wanna learn about virtual air combat?  you want some respect from me?  bring your narrow minded self absorbed ego into the s3 and i will give you a mission to accomplish vs. the 31st, 352nd, 4th, 416th and a bunch of other really really good war gamer groups with your team depending on your ability to accomplish the task i set for you.  
no pressure just a couple hundred other guys depending on you coming through.  that is my environment, that is where i thrive.  
you know having to fight where you can't see your enemy coming, where staying alive matters almost as much as accomplishing your mission.  that is my thing, and i am very good at it.

Okay, Ded is being a little more abrasive than I consider tasteful, I believe it is better style to be magnanimous when proven right. Something you fail to grasp is that Dedalos or any other "good stick" in this game *could* fly "smart" all the time and rack up huge k/d ratios, etc. It only takes a few months to get good at flying "smart"...of course, that translates into many more hours than 99% of combat pilots ever had, so it is perhaps no small accomplishment.

The ONLY time I see Dedalos in the air with me is when I'm doing desperate base defense...literally having to fight your way into the air with enemy fighters buzzing the runway. Now, I just checked his k/d, and its 1.89...not surprising when you get strafed on the runway alot. BUT, his kills time is a *stunning* 13 per hour. All stats can be gamed, but honestly, k/t is probably the single best indicator of pilot effectiveness, and engaging numerous enemy fighters coming in with all the advantages to vulch is the *opposite* of gaming your stats! Be very thankful Dedalos does *not* fly with the advantage all the time.

[thorsim]

i believe sir that there are many who point out many things that are wrong with the FMs of all the sim/games ...

mostly it is not an "FM" problem i take issue with, it is how some of the data is used to determine some limits and not others that bothers me mostly.

however i agree that that issue and previous discussions about it that have set the tone between me and others here.

Heh, I don't really care in what style or how well Thorsim flies, and I have no urge to kick a man when he's down.

Thor, the only thing you do that really annoys is the constant vague implications that something is "wrong" with the Aces High flight model when you do not have the necessary physics to evaluate any sim's flight model.

[thorsim]

well there you go again, i will just ignore the first part as that speaks well enough on its own ...

since there has not been enough disclosure for some i believe there were 5 of both the a5 and hog and 2-4 of the a8, as it went on and the fights got more fun it is possible we lost track of the exact numbers of the hog and the a8 as i am positive about the 5 in the a5 but not so much on the other two ...

also i inadvertently hit the gear key a couple of times in the hog while transmitting as it was my first day in the type and dropping gear at high speed is not an issue in the planes i fly so it had never come up before then for me.  we reset a fight because of that i recall.

not sure if there is anything else particularly embarrassing that i remember ...

any other questions ...

on a side note it is easier for me, well i am more comfortable, i think where the merge is not "even" as even starting E- you have a way to fight.  when you are even and confined i found it more difficult and trying to establish the advantage i think may leave you at even more of a disadvantage if you do not achieve the advantage rather than just starting down fighting.  not sure that makes sense, there is more room to breath the more of an e difference for both fighters it seems to me as it is pass and zoom, then re-establish and repeat where the confined duel is more a constant pressure thing and getting e back much harder as the E- player.

I have a human level 80 mage.  I think dual arcane and fire specs.  Does that count? 

As BnZ said, just man up and leave the excuses.  You wont even tell me how many rounds you lost.  You want respect, come out and post that TC moped the floors with you and you will get it.  Own him in WB and you will get even more.  What ever the FM may be, you were both using the same one.

[Bronk]

Thor, props for stepping up to TC's offer. That is much better than most do.

[BnZs]

on a side note it is easier for me, well i am more comfortable, i think where the merge is not "even" as even starting E- you have a way to fight.  when you are even and confined i found it more difficult and trying to establish the advantage i think may leave you at even more of a disadvantage if you do not achieve the advantage rather than just starting down fighting.  not sure that makes sense, there is more room to breath the more of an e difference for both fighters it seems to me as it is pass and zoom, then re-establish and repeat where the confined duel is more a constant pressure thing and getting e back much harder as the E- player.

The whole point of the matched "duel" is that no one has advantage and an advantageous position must be manufactured. It is indeed possible and not uncommon to use positive "E" fighting techniques in a duel but recognizing and implementing them will be more subtle and involve narrower margins than in some situation where you obviously come in with alot of alt on a guy. That is why the duel is such good practice. In the "real world" of the MA anyone past a two-weeker is not going to try and follow your 190 that just zoomed by at 500mph up into the vertical. If you want a nice guns solution on a good stick in a much more maneuverable fighter, you are going to have keep the pressure up, work with a narrower margin of superior E, and be good at handling the plane what I call uncomfortably slow speed. Another situation you will run into is when the opponent theoretically has the better turner but they keep much speed or are simply reversing abit loosely, and you can go very aggressive on the angles with your "worse" turner to quickly grab a shot opportunity.Again, alot of duelling will help you here.

[humble]

thorsim,

1st I'll add a +1 to those who have applauded you for stepping up and exploring the possibilities. I think the degree of difficulty issue is a reflection of TC's ability. This goes back to the concept of induced error. A good pilot using sound ACM can provide a confusing picture that looks to trap another player. The extension range is actually plenty. I spent about 12 min in a 262 "dueling" a A6M5 in the MA on the deck and don't think I ever exceeded 2.0 once and was inside 1.5 most of the time.

[Doberman]

on a side note it is easier for me, well i am more comfortable, i think where the merge is not "even" as even starting E- you have a way to fight.  when you are even and confined i found it more difficult and trying to establish the advantage i think may leave you at even more of a disadvantage if you do not achieve the advantage rather than just starting down fighting.  not sure that makes sense, there is more room to breath the more of an e difference for both fighters it seems to me as it is pass and zoom, then re-establish and repeat where the confined duel is more a constant pressure thing and getting e back much harder as the E- player.

I'm sorry, did you just say that it's much easier for you to win a fight when you start out with a huge energy advantage?  And that dueling someone on a level playing field is more difficult?

Really?  Whoda thunk it?

[dedalos]

on a side note it is easier for me, well i am more comfortable, i think where the merge is not "even" as even starting E- you have a way to fight.  when you are even and confined i found it more difficult and trying to establish the advantage i think may leave you at even more of a disadvantage if you do not achieve the advantage rather than just starting down fighting.  not sure that makes sense, there is more room to breath the more of an e difference for both fighters it seems to me as it is pass and zoom, then re-establish and repeat where the confined duel is more a constant pressure thing and getting e back much harder as the E- player.

Look at it as practice.  If you have E then you have E, nothing to do there.  Look at the duel as practice in generating that E difference.  Don;t forget, you merge co-alt but not co E.  Sometimes, less can be better but if you like the more, try to generate the difference.  Win or lose, it will make you better and you will be more successful  in the MA when you have more room to play with and create the e differential.

The reason for the "confined" environment is to force you to create the advantage instead of starting with it.  Personally, I d rather be the low e guy. Gives me an opportunity to get angles early.  If for some reason i misjudged your e and the differential is big, I have learned (through dueling) to equalize it.  It is easier to equalize E than to get an angle back.  For me that is.  Others may be different.

Oh, and <S> for showing up.  I honestly did not expect it.

[thorsim]

thanks, i have no problem with dueling and like many other things it can be fun frustrating and informative all at the same time.  my major reservation is that some would try and use results as proof of something other than who is the best duelist.

Thor, props for stepping up to TC's offer. That is much better than most do.

i understand the point of the matched duel i was just expressing some thoughts on my impressions as a non duelist, the comment you quoted was purely conversational about my experiences, but i understand what you are saying.

The whole point of the matched "duel" is that no one has advantage and an advantageous position must be manufactured. It is indeed possible and not uncommon to use positive "E" fighting techniques in a duel but recognizing and implementing them will be more subtle and involve narrower margins than in some situation where you obviously come in with alot of alt on a guy. That is why the duel is such good practice. In the "real world" of the MA anyone past a two-weeker is not going to try and follow your 190 that just zoomed by at 500mph up into the vertical. If you want a nice guns solution on a good stick in a much more maneuverable fighter, you are going to have keep the pressure up, work with a narrower margin of superior E, and be good at handling the plane what I call uncomfortably slow speed. Another situation you will run into is when the opponent theoretically has the better turner but they keep much speed or are simply reversing abit loosely, and you can go very aggressive on the angles with your "worse" turner to quickly grab a shot opportunity.Again, alot of duelling will help you here.

i have more thoughts but i don't want to bore you all

+S+

t

[thorsim]

I'm sorry, did you just say that it's much easier for you to win a fight when you start out with a huge energy advantage?  And that dueling someone on a level playing field is more difficult?

Really?  Whoda thunk it?

no i was trying to say i was more comfortable fighting with energy differences even if i am the guy at the disadvantage because i know from experience how to approach those fights.  even fights seem to end up as either pure plane handling contests (which i have little hope of winning) or a waiting game to who is gonna screw up first which would likely be me in AH as well ...

i find that pulling out a reversal or overshoot on a guy that is 75mph faster is much easier for me than trying to reverse a guy that has position and is very close to my energy state ...