Yak-9U, the Bringer of Sorrow

[StSanta]

Niklas,
The Klimov 107 inline engine that powered the Yak-9U had a normal maximum power of 1500hp. It's military maximum power was more like 1650-1700hp. I think the Yak-9U's top speed was with military power, not normal power.
</B>

Well, that makes it even more of a mystery, since the WEP on the 109 is just about 30% of its total capability, at least in this game.

So it is a little lighter, but has a larger wing area, and an engine that has 500hp less, but it will still outfly my Über G10 in what the G10 does best; climb and speed?

Sounds to me like this plane can seriously upset the balance in this game. As someone mentioned, it sounds like a Spit that cvan turn, z&b AND outrun other fighters, at least below 16k (and let's face it, most dogfights/furballs end up below that alt quite quickly).

I don't want to give up my g10 just because a dweeb plane is introduced . At the moment, the Spit, n1k, LA5, C.202/5 etc really outturn the G10. Some have a good top speed too, or keep their e very well. But, once such a plane loses its initiative, the G10 pilot can climb away and start pounding back, using the areas where the aircraft is superior.

If the Yak is introduced in the way that some people suggest it should, the G10 will have no areas where it is better, or at least areas where the difference matters.

Oh well, </rant>

--
StSanta
II/JG2

[Kieren]

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet. Let's see how things shake out.

FWIW, I think the G10 will still occupy the "King of Climb" category. As for the average guy cranking out kills in the Yak, well... somehow I doubt that too. It just doesn't carry enough ammo to do that. Of course, a guy that knows how to fly it may scare the living hell out of you...   That is what makes it an interesting plane to introduce IMHO- it has potential, but if you don't take the time to learn what it can do you can't really expect to fully exploit it.

[Duckwing6]

heheh find it funny when people think they can't kill anymore when a plane comes out that's better than their fav ride ..

my Fav. ride is the F4U1-D .. almost every other plane is better than it so you just have to fly SMARTER than your opponent (too bad there is too many smart opponents in AH  )

[Cleaner]

Kieren you are right, the Yak is a very easy plane to fly and a very hard plane to master. It takes considerable time to learn the various techniques in order to turn it into a real Yakrobat. Been practicing myself with the LaV using rudder stalls to prep myself for that day when it arrives  

[This message has been edited by Cleaner (edited 04-29-2000).]

[Sorrow[S=A]]

niklas: Yak 3U is a different plane. Yak 3 was the interceptor version (Anti fighter only) of the Yak-9. The Yak-3U was the all metal, VK-107&108 plane that came out in April 1945. It was an extremely small tri-cannon metal skin plane that could travel in excess of 450 mph at less than 20k. With the exception of a P-47M it was probably the fastest prop plane in WWII, though neither of those two saw air to air combat (With the exception of the P-47M chasing down V2 rockets!). Plus the P-47M required being well over 20,000 ft to achieve it's speed. I believe the critical alt for the Vk-108 was more like 18-21k. Far more usefull in combat.

The 9U however, was widely produced and fought by the end of the war. it is very comparable to the 109 G-10 and K models and the P-51 in performance and speed. The difference being mostly that it is lighter than either and much less capable of fighting over 20k.

[Hristo]

No plane ever chased V-2 rockets  

V-1, now that is another story.

As for Yak, yes, I am afraid of that plane.

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Stsanta: no offence but the things you just said were EXACTLY the reasons why the 9U was built. Russian's needed a comparable plane and the 9u was the result. Your G10 will still outgun it with 30mm, and still outclimb it (your wep should be more effective, especially with alt). Otherwise it is a comparable plane. Slighter more nimble but also smaller and lighter.

  9U is hardly going to be an "uber" ride. at least no more than the G10 is now. and my guess is the first few tries where people find the Yak exploding under fire due to it's  weaker airframe will kill their enthusiasm. if that doesn't running out of ammo should help.

[Vermillion]

 

If the Yak is introduced in the way that some people suggest it should, the G10 will have no areas where it is better, or at least areas where the difference matters

LOL! If thats not bending the facts to fit your own agenda, what is.

Max Speed of G10 at altitude: 452 at 19,700ft.

Max Speed of Yak-9U at altitude: 435 at 18,000ft.

So a 17 mph differential in maximum speeds, better acceleration isn't a substantial or advantageous difference??

Santa, I do believe you and the elves have been smoking some of that "Funny Mistletoe" lately  


------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[StSanta]

Duckw wrote:
heheh find it funny when people think they can't kill anymore when a plane comes out that's better than their fav ride..

Duck, it's not so much that the plane is better than my favourite ride, it is that it might make the game unbalanced. In a 1v1 with equally skilled pilots, it is quite possible to get into a stalemate (say a 51 with some alt on a 109). Still the respective strengths and weaknesses of the planes can be exploited. Now, if you have a plane that has only strengths compared to another, even if the 109 pilot is more skilled, the outcome is likely to be to his disadvantage.

And I agree, there is a stunning number of very good pilots in AH. That's why I am worried; the 109 is not the best ride in the game. It compresses easily, turns like a pig, has relatively poor armament, must be trimmed more than other planes and so forth. Still, these weaknesses are balanced by superiority in other areas.

Gah, the thought of a Spit that can outrun ya scares me  .

[StSanta]

Sorrow wrote:

Stsanta: no offence but the things you just said were EXACTLY the reasons why the 9U was built. Russian's needed a comparable plane and the 9u was the result. Your G10 will still outgun it with 30mm, and still outclimb it (your wep should be more effective, especially with alt). Otherwise it is a comparable plane. Slighter more nimble but also smaller and lighter.

No offense taken. But you have an aircraft that outturns everything, climbs well, dives easily with the g10 and has a better armament and max speed.
If the difference in climb rate is neglible, well, then I'd say we have a new relaxed realism plane. The Spit is bad enough as it is, but imagine it on steroids and with a z&b kit  .

No 109 pilot I know of use the 30mm for anything other than buff bonking/panzer plonking, due to its slow rate of fire and very low muzzle velocity, so it will be outgunned as well.

Maybe it will be as the 109; hard to learn but effective once mastered. I am just worried when I hear stories about a Spit on steroids  .

--
StSanta

[StSanta]

quote:------------------
LOL! If thats not bending the facts to fit your own agenda, what is.
------------------------

Well, reread what I wrote. Just reread it.
Something about "some people suggest" or something like that. Implementation.

quote:---------------------
Max Speed of G10 at altitude: 452 at 19,700ft.

Max Speed of Yak-9U at altitude: 435 at 18,000ft.

So a 17 mph differential in maximum speeds, better acceleration isn't a substantial or advantageous difference??

------------------------
Oh sure is, if this is the way it is implemented. But while most fights start at around 20-25k, they rather quickly come down to around 10-12k I have found. If the Yak can climb about as well, and retains E better, the maximum speed would really be irrelevant if the 109 would wish to fight.

Another are of interest is the max speed at sea level. Your own numbers show the Yak has a definitive edge here, and low level speed is sort of important, since most will dive to extend/get away from an enemy, which means that eventually, the fight ends on the deck.
quote:---------------
Santa, I do believe you and the elves have been smoking some of that "Funny Mistletoe" lately
---------------------

Vermillion, I think you have had your head placed inside another area of your body in an anatomically impossible way and the fumes are affecting your cognitive processes.

I came into this debate with some worries, not with an agenda. Don't assume I have some. Give others the benefit of the doubt now and then, chill out, take the cotton out of your mouth and put them into your ears and what other idioms there are.

I hate to start a mudslinging debate, but I hate being patronized even more. RAM has a notorious temper and I'm just a wee bit behind it.

--
StSanta of EAC
II/JG2

[leonid]

Guys, the Yak-9U is no jet.  It does have limitations, like:

• poor hi altitude performance.
• good turn, but nothing like a Spitfire, or even a N1K2.
• weak-average airframe.  This plane won't be taking a lot of hits.

All planes have weaknesses, even an Me-262.  I'm just glad that finally the VVS have an aircraft that will have parity with the P-51D, F4U, and Bf109G-10.

OTOH, if HTC see fit to include the -9UT variant with this model, then you'll have an aircraft with the option of a massive salvo weight (salvo weight is the amount of mass an aircraft's armament can unleash per unit time).  With the NS-37 and two B-20 configuration the Yak-9UT had a salvo weight of 6kg/sec.  Compare that to an F4U-1C/Typhoon at 6.96kg/sec, and an Fw190A-8 six-gun configuration at 5.53kg/sec.

Finally, a German experten by the name of Walter Wolfrum(Wolfrun?) made an interesting comment, regarding the -9U.  He said, "The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and the Russian Yak-9U.  Both of these types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'.  The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."  Wolfrum was part of JG 52.  He flew 423 sorties, and shot down 137 aircraft, all in the Russian front.

2,500 Yak-9Us saw combat during WWII, while 282 -9UTs were produced before war's end.

Am I gloating?  No, I'm not.  But I sure feel good  


------------------
leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."

[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 04-29-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Well Santa its quite obvious you have an agenda whether you claim too or not.

Call me anything you wish or insult at will, I don't care and will just laugh.  

 

Oh sure is, if this is the way it is implemented. But while most fights start at around 20-25k, they rather quickly come down to around 10-12k I have found. If the Yak can climb about as well, and retains E better, the maximum speed would really be irrelevant if the 109 would wish to fight.

How is it irrelevant? You control the fight at will. If it goes bad, extend, and make a decision from there. If you arguement was correct, how does a P-51 beat a Spitfire? The Pony does it by flying smart, and playing to his strengths.

 

Another are of interest is the max speed at sea level. Your own numbers show the Yak has a definitive edge here, and low level speed is sort of important, since most will dive to extend/get away from an enemy, which means that eventually, the fight ends on the deck.

Not if you fight your aircraft to its fullest, and only fly to the strengths of your aircraft.

The G10 is faster from about 15k up. So thats where you should fight. If the fight starts to decend below 15k, the G10 pilot better decide real quick if he wants to continue the fight to the death, or run away like a little screaming girl to fight another day(tm Juzz) while he still has a speed advantage [Something I am also quite familiar with as a P-51 pilot].

And its your choice, you don't have to dive all the way to the deck during an extension or escape. Escape at the altitude where you plane has the advantage.  Its a common mistake many pilots make, and its quite unneeded unless the other pilot has more E or a much faster plane.

If I'm flying a P-51 and am 1 v 1 a Typhoon, I'm not going to try and run on the deck, he will eat me up. If I think I need to run, I am going to do it above 10k, while I still have a chance.

See this is a Sim, and the thing about a Sim is that planes have strengths and weakness's you can't have it all. If you play to its strengths you generally win, if you don't you lose.

Yes the Yak-9U matches up very well on paper to the G10. Thats the facts of history. We will wait and see how it matchs up in AH.

I will leave you with two quotes from very knowledgeable Luftwaffe pilots.

 

The best fighters  I met in Combat were the American P-51 Mustang and the Russian Yak-9U.  Both of these types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the "K". The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and manueverability.

Walter Wolfrun, Bf109G Combat Ace

and

 

Whereas the German Bf109G and Fw190 models were equal to any of the aforementioned Soviet Fighter Models in all respects, this cannot be said  of the Soviet Yak-3, which made its first appearance at the front in the late Summer of 1944. This aeroplane was faster, more manueverable and had better climbing capabilities that the Bf109G and Fw190, to which it was inferior only in armament.

by Lieutenant General Walter Schwabedissen, in his book, The Russian Air Force in the Eyes of the German Commanders

Oh, and incidentally, the Yak-9U was superior to the Yak-3 in most regards, until the later model Yak-3's were equipped with the Vk-107 engine.

Get upset all you want, but it sounds like you don't like the fact that the Yak-9U could historically fight the Bf109G10 at its own game (climb and acceleration) and have a shot at winning.

[LOL!! Leonid, we were typing our messages at the same time, and come up with the same quote]

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 04-29-2000).]

[juzz]

"or run away like a little screaming girl to fight another day(tm Juzz)"

Eh? Where's that coming from?

[715]

 

Originally posted by Hristo:
No plane ever chased V-2 rockets  

Not entirely true.  I read an account of a Spit pilot attacking a V-2 as it launched.  He was getting hits when it dawned on him that maybe it wasn't such a good idea for all that rocket fuel, and warhead, to explode right in front of him.

715A