Where did I go wrong?

[CAP1]

humble.........you mentioned something in your first response that has always confused me....and killed my cartoon pile-it.

 you mentioned that lazer turned his lift vector away from the con. why? when guys do this to me, i eventually end up dead. when i feel the need to do it, i eventually end up dead.

 crowding the red guy seems to work best for me.


thanks!

[humble]

I'm not going to pretend I know what was going thru the guys mind at that moment...after all nobody ever buts me on any of those lists

Speaking in more general terms as goes your lift vector so do you. Any time your lift vector is pointing to some flavor of "up" your maintaining or storing E and maximzing your potential to convert your current E to stored E with minimal need to manipulate your control surface. So when I look at the merge from madda's perspective what I see is lazer coming in with a somewhat downward slope. As soon as madda makes his move you see lazer flatten out and then actually mirror by turning slightly away...so at the "cross he's slightly high and has rolled to a parallel track or even slightly away...then goes down as madda goes up and mirrors his move. To me the question is simple. Are you better in out of plane lag (defensive or neutral) or in plane lead (aggressive angles)? The answer is never ending and complex. There are subtleties beyond my grasp (or I'd be better) but what I "teach" is that it's better to be in out of plane lag any time your plane is at a performance or positional disadvantage and in plane when you can either exploit a performance or positional advantage...

[FLS]

Madda the main thing I see is that you're in a better turning A/C but when you start to gain angles you reverse into lazer's guns. Once you commit to a turn don't reverse unless you have a reason to.

[humble]

I'm sorry but I don't see any place were madda ever had any angles. He's toast at :58 seconds or so the moment he doesn't look to square up and dive thru the remerge. Once he commits to that merge lazer is on him like white on rice. I think he flew the defense very well but got pushed beyond his ability to control the plane on the edge...but at no point beyond the :58 second mark does he (IMO) have any chance at all.

[TequilaChaser]

heya Josh ( madda ),
I see alot have replyed with some good info.....

at the 1st merge, there is no seperation, even though madda gains the low side, the seperation is Nil, this causes the Wide turn by madda(Ki-61) even though he does nearly a true Immelman/loop to Lazer's Pitchback which is considerably tighter and allows Lazer to gain the behind 3/9 line advantage...... I would not say going nose low after the 1st reversal/2nd merge was an absolute bad idea...... with the speed madda had, he might of had other options

if he goes up instead of down at this point, Lazer is still slower and is still going to be inside his turn or climb and prob would have got guns on him sooner

As for madda gaining the angles advantage, the opportunity was there......madda just didn't capitalize on it/or didn't recognize the opportunity

 Lazer rolls away at 01:19/01:43 and is heading nose low doing 152 mph, while madda is hdg nose low (away from Lazer ) doing 195 mph........ madda at this point has regained positional advantage right here if he just went into a climb but instead rolls back into another pass allowing Lazer to keep behind madda's 3/9 line ( well basically totally behind him  / high 6 )

madda simply failed to see the door open for him, or he wanted to mix it up........ either  or .........

also, the 2nd bogey didn't help matters any ( the Hurri ) with its attempted pass on madda......... that just clouded the mental picture even more for madda

for nearly the whole fight madda is most times significantly faster, so any turning he does, is going to be a heck of alot wider... where as Lazer is flying much slower against the ki-61 and can turn inside the ki-61s turn everytime......

Lazer is a Great Stick, is hard to beat verses prob 80 or 90 % of the rest of the players...... but the biggest mistake I see is not knowing or not using the Ki-61's Combat Flight envelope........ or in other words flying it between Instantaneous turn speed to Sustained turn speed...... you was well above the Corner speed/instantaneous turnspeed of the Ki-61 for much of the fight..... this hurt you more than anything in my opinion....

[maddafinga]

Lots of good info and stuff to study in this thread. 

To tell you the truth TC, I don't know any of the 61s info at all, I just like flying it.  I usually do fairly well in it, but sometimes I'm just off and get my butt handed to me.  I suspect that Lazer would have done that regardless but much of the time I'd have put up a much better fight than that. I tried to come back and fight him in the K4 that I fly most of the time, but by then the field was starting to be capped and I eventually had to move away from it. 

I think I've done more studying of this film than I have in a good while.  I'm going to need to study it some more and read your breakdown of it as I go.  I think what mostly killed me was having a cloudy picture going in of how I wanted to fight the fight.  I dove to get speed thinking of double immel, but then didn't do that and instead while still too fast tried to get in too close and just lost it all. 

I'll watch it carefully again later today, and study what you've said here and once again and study one more time what Snaphook said too.  Thanks for your help!

[humble]

TC,

I'm curious in the sense that I always feel that if I get trapped into the "over" spot on the remerge I'm at a significant disadvantage if I accept the rolling scissor style engagement. Yes I can occasionally get lucky or pull some pilot stiff out but the better the opponent the less realistic my chances. As long as the other guy is managing his views well and has the advantage of lower speed, proper lift vector orientation and positional control he can counter faster then I can cover ground since he's really just moving his lift vector vs flying much of an arc. When I look at the clip from madda's perspective I just don't see a winning position beyond a cross control type fly thru the shot deal. I'm always leary (maybe to much so) of trying to extend up and away from a 38 since even at ranges of 600-800+ I seem to lose things I need...have to look at it again tonight...

[TequilaChaser]

TC,

I'm curious in the sense that I always feel that if I get trapped into the "over" spot on the remerge I'm at a significant disadvantage if I accept the rolling scissor style engagement. Yes I can occasionally get lucky or pull some pilot stiff out but the better the opponent the less realistic my chances. As long as the other guy is managing his views well and has the advantage of lower speed, proper lift vector orientation and positional control he can counter faster then I can cover ground since he's really just moving his lift vector vs flying much of an arc. When I look at the clip from madda's perspective I just don't see a winning position beyond a cross control type fly thru the shot deal. I'm always leary (maybe to much so) of trying to extend up and away from a 38 since even at ranges of 600-800+ I seem to lose things I need...have to look at it again tonight...

Rgr humble,
when looking from the cockpit of madda at the time in the film I posted 1:18/1:19  area........ I  noticed Lazer had rolled his lift vector away

( he in my opinion did this because he thought he could obtain a guns solution right before he rolled away, he is firing but I did not see any hits on this try, and I am thinking Lazer noticed he was pulling away )...
I then switched to outside fixed postion to get a better view of it...... noticing Lazer was at this exact point in time giving up position or opening the door......

madda from my perspective was in a very shallow nose low postion with wings level. Lazer could not even see what madda was doing or gonna do at this point in time because he is showing his underside to madda....... and would have to roll nearly 315 degrees then pull up to follow, had madda just pulled back on the stick and climbed....... had madda of done that he would have "regained" the advantage being both faster and have the alt advantage as well........  that is my take on it from that point......... if madda had capitalized on the opportunity....

edit: well I am discounting the hurri that is around 600/700 behind madda and lazer coming up. but still madda is faster than both of em around 1:20/1:21 right before he decides to roll back in and right into /across Lazer's flight path........

hence. I posted earlier that having that hurri show up, did not help matters for madda........ on dealing with the P38.....

[humble]

cc,

I'm always trying to learn where the limits are. Anytime I find the other guy is getting shot windows from the upper position vs me being able to pull up and in to deny the shot window I feel like I'm locked into an all or nothing death match since I invariably feel that 1st to break off (without actually forcing an overshoot of the 3/9 line) gives to good a shot window. So I find I push my "go/no go" decision point back earlier in the fight. At the point in the fight you describe I think I'd already have been locked into an all or nothing mind set since he's pummeling me coming back off the top...

[Big Rat]

There is a theory of mine that I've been sticking with.  That theory is the first one to break low to their opponent (nose low) is normally putting themselves at a disadvantage in an equal alt merge. As soon as mada rolled nose low and pulled down on second merge, lazer just rolled on top of him, fight was lost at 1:04.  Albeit extension was still possible.

 
BigRat

[SPKmes]

Hey there madda...I have not seen the film..however from what is said about your speed...IMO you are way too fast to contemplate a turn fight....for me anything over 300 is a time to tempt the con into a tasty morsel...thus  bleeding his speed a little more till I am at what I consider the KI's best fighting speed... I find that if I go trying for angles over 300 I am dead...in some cases you are able to srcub your speed fast enough if you commit to a turn fight with a lot of rudder and aggressive elevator input.....but against a person like lazer it is very difficult..

[CAP1]

i'm not sure if this helps or not......but i've noticed that about 1/2 of the time, if i have a co-alt co-e merge, and i manage to get myself above the bogie, and maintain that position overall, regardless of what it is, i can eventually kill it.
 it's the ones that don't let me do this that kill me rather quickly.

[humble]

There is a theory of mine that I've been sticking with.  That theory is the first one to break low to their opponent (nose low) is normally putting themselves at a disadvantage in an equal alt merge. As soon as mada rolled nose low and pulled down on second merge, lazer just rolled on top of him, fight was lost at 1:04.  Albeit extension was still possible.

 
BigRat

I put it at :58 in the sense that lazer had him "mirrored" with he (lazer) at the bottom of a low yoyo and madda up high. Had he blown thru the remerge he can reset but the moment he continues to the merge he's pushing a bad situation...so if 1:04 is the point of no return on denying the remerge that would sync up with my thoughts...

[SPKmes]

  Albeit extension was still possible.

 
BigRat

There is not much a Ki61 can extend from...not being a smart arse...just saying

[humble]

I think we're both reading it as he could drive thru the merge and force lazer to fly the long way around... similar to what TC is commenting on at a point later in the fight...he can develop enough E to recapture an advanateg if lazer pursues him vs also continuing to climb out...