First flight for the Russian "F-22"

[Anaxogoras]

LOL.  First off, "theoretical air-to-air performance" doesn't mean just turn performance, it's the entire weapon system (radar, missile, airframe, pilot).

Ok, that clarifies things.  You can go without the horse-laugh and communicate just as well.

Your friend would be foolish to make such a blanket statement

I have no desire to argue about his opinion with you.  He is more intelligent than me, has a physics degree from Cal, and soloed on his 16th birthday.  I didn't argue about it with him.  What I do know is that part of the reason for his "blanket statement" was his red-flag experience in Alaska.  His flight of F-16s was repeatedly wiped out by a flight of F-22s they were never able to find.  In our last conversation about it he felt that either the F-22 or the F-35 would be a fine replacement, and was not bothered by the fact that the F-22 has an edge over the F-35.

[Karnak]

Seeing as it is being developed in partnership with India, I assume that this would be India's planned future fighter as well.  If so, what does that mean for the balance of power in that region, i.e. India vs Pakistan or India vs China?

[eagl]

Good thing we cancelled further production of the F-22, otherwise we might have accidentally maintained a capability to beat this thing in a "fair" fight.

[Anaxogoras]

Seeing as it is being developed in partnership with India, I assume that this would be India's planned future fighter as well.  If so, what does that mean for the balance of power in that region, i.e. India vs Pakistan or India vs China?

Karnak, since all of them have nukes, pray to God that they never go to war.  Which one has the edge in fighter technology is almost irrelevant.

[Mace2004]

Ok, that clarifies things.  You can go without the horse-laugh and communicate just as well.

I have no desire to argue about his opinion with you.  He is more intelligent than me, has a physics degree from Cal, and soloed on his 16th birthday.  I didn't argue about it with him.  What I do know is that part of the reason for his "blanket statement" was his red-flag experience in Alaska.  His flight of F-16s was repeatedly wiped out by a flight of F-22s they were never able to find.  In our last conversation about it he felt that either the F-22 or the F-35 would be a fine replacement, and was not bothered by the fact that the F-22 has an edge over the F-35.

Sorry, I wasn't laughing at you, it was more of a chuckle at hearing this type of argument which I've heard, well, it seems forever.  :-)

Your friend may have participated in Red Flag but then so have I, several times.  The first time I did we (F14s) were red air simulating MiG 23 Floggers but the USAF only allowed us to use AA-2 Atolls (basically old AIM 9G/H parameters which are short range rear-quarter-only IR missiles).  Mind you this was well after the Soviets had deployed hundreds of MIG 23 with forward quarter AA7 Apex (basically like a Soviet Sparrow).  The F15s used AMRAAM (which wasn't even operational yet).  I never did figure out what scenario they were trying to demonstrate other than the AMRAAM was the best thing since sliced bread.  Of course even with AIM 7 Sparrows the F15's would have still had a relatively easy time.  The air battle was basicly "fights on", one potato, two potato, three potato, "All F14's are dead Eagles are RTB".  

We got a bit tired of this crap and did what Red would do...adapt.  We pulled the circuit breakers in the cockpit for the TACTS pods so we couldn't be tracked and headed for the dirt, turned north out of the area and swung around to the east where the F15's were tanking on KC135's.  We popped up, pushed in the TACTS circuit breakers and shot all the Eagles and their tankers.  Now that was friggin fun.  Of course this was illegal as hell and the USAF howled but the next day they at least gave us the AA7.

What your friend is missing here though is that he's flying a fourth generation fighter against a 5th generation so the issue isn't weapon system VS turn but weapon system VS weapon system.  The 5th gen fighter will always have a huge advantage and the fact he's getting swacked is no great surprise. Also, IMHO (and experience) the USAF isn't necessarily interested in a good fight or even good training, sometimes all it's after is a good demonstraton of its current "Halo" aircraft or missile.    

If the scenario is 4th gen vs 5th gen than either the F22 or F35 will do but the question is 5th gen vs 5th gen.  So, forget the F16, give your friend a choice of F22, F35 and PAK AF and things would change according to his mission.  If you believe Russian claims as to the PAK AF's capabilities (I'm not saying they will be) and the mission is air to air the smart choices, in order, would be the F22, PAK AF then F35.  If it's air-to-ground then it would be PAK AF, F35, F22.

[Mace2004]

Good thing we cancelled further production of the F-22, otherwise we might have accidentally maintained a capability to beat this thing in a "fair" fight.

Wouldn't want that, they might call us "hoarders".

[Anaxogoras]

Good writeup Mace.  You have a legitimate point in that his perspective is colored by his circumstances.  From what I understand, their F-16s are falling apart.  He more or less said, "I could give a rat's bellybutton which one they give us, just hurry up and get on with it."  From his perspective either the F-22 or F-35 is vastly superior to what he's stuck with now.

[JunkyII]

I have heard rumors of the F22 taking on 15 F15s with just 2 F22.......The F15s didn't know where they were, supposedly

[Ack-Ack]

I've always been curious, is the F-14 in your avatar just a generic shot of one or a picture of the one that you used to fly?


ack-ack

[Mace2004]

I've always been curious, is the F-14 in your avatar just a generic shot of one or a picture of the one that you used to fly?

That's Vandy 50, the second production F14D and first of four D's I had at VX4 (Vandy 50-53) for the F14D OPEVAL in 1990.  I was the F14D Operational Test Director and took this shot from Vandy 51.  This was a test flight to check out the missiles and weapon system for the next day's missile shoot where I launched four Phoenix, two Sparrows and a Sidewinder on one run against six targets.  That was the biggest missile shoot the Tomcat did since the 6 Phoenix shot during developmental testing in the early 70's.  It's not often you see a Tomcat fully loaded for air-to-air but, as you can see, you can still use the vertical.  Strapping 5,500lbs of pure air-to-air meanness under your wings sure puts some lead in the pencil.  

Here's the original:


and on deck at NAS Pt Mugu the next day just before the big shoot:


Vandy 52 on our way to a low-altitude combined Phonix and Sparrow shoot over the desert near China Lake


Vandy 51 and 52 on our way out to Nimitz for traps.  Look how pretty those brand new puppy's are!

[mensa180]

Woah very cool Mace.

[sntslilhlpr6601]

Good shtuff. 

[Ack-Ack]

That's Vandy 50, the second production F14D and first of four D's I had at VX4 (Vandy 50-53) for the F14D OPEVAL in 1990.  I was the F14D Operational Test Director and took this shot from Vandy 51.  This was a test flight to check out the missiles and weapon system for the next day's missile shoot where I launched four Phoenix, two Sparrows and a Sidewinder on one run against six targets.  That was the biggest missile shoot the Tomcat did since the 6 Phoenix shot during developmental testing in the early 70's.  It's not often you see a Tomcat fully loaded for air-to-air but, as you can see, you can still use the vertical.  Strapping 5,500lbs of pure air-to-air meanness under your wings sure puts some lead in the pencil.  

That's really cool.  Did you splash all 6 targets?


ack-ack

[Yenny]

  Good to have lived my dream Mace!

[Widewing]

That's Vandy 50, the second production F14D and first of four D's I had at VX4 (Vandy 50-53) for the F14D OPEVAL in 1990.  I was the F14D Operational Test Director and took this shot from Vandy 51.  This was a test flight to check out the missiles and weapon system for the next day's missile shoot where I launched four Phoenix, two Sparrows and a Sidewinder on one run against six targets.  That was the biggest missile shoot the Tomcat did since the 6 Phoenix shot during developmental testing in the early 70's.  It's not often you see a Tomcat fully loaded for air-to-air but, as you can see, you can still use the vertical.  Strapping 5,500lbs of pure air-to-air meanness under your wings sure puts some lead in the pencil.  

Mace, it appears that someone has put up a VX-4 page of Facebook.. 142 members.

http://www.facebook.com/search/?q=VX-4&init=quick#/group.php?v=wall&gid=101942125586

My regards,

Widewing