Ain't nothin like a Jeep

[saggs]

I feel I should clarify that I'm not dishing on Jeeps really.  I agree they are very capable vehicles, and according to Widewing they have made huge strides in reliability/durability since the early/mid 90's ones I saw break down so often.  I even considered Cherokees before I got my Rodeo, but was not impressed with the ones I looked at, 2 had doors that didn't close properly, one had a rear end waaay out of alignment (probably bent) and I just didn't like the interior, also I just like to be a little different.  

I just think that Todds opinion of them is WAAAYY over-inflated, and he needs to come back to reality. (that outa get him worked up   )  Also Jeeps are sooooo popular around here that there is a higher percentage of idiots driving them, the kind who think they are an off-road superstar because they just got a Jeep, never mind their complete lack of skill and knowledge. Which makes them easy targets to poke fun at when they get hopelessly stuck trying something completely asinine.  For me it's all in good fun though, I mean nothing malicious at all.

Like I said I really don't care if your wheeling in a Kia, as long as you having fun, and being responsible.  Which is why I'll never go to EJS again, I've never seen so many irresponsible jerks in my life as I did the one time I went.  Just a bunch of rowdy, crude, rude, drunk irresponsible morons, and YES they were mostly driving Jeeps which HAS tainted my opinion of them.

[saggs]

(Image removed from quote.)

Now that's cool.  I saw a bug once that a guy had shoehorned a Ford 460 block into.  Looked goofy with the wheelie bars, and a radiator basically duct taped to the front, but man, that thing was a wheelie machine!

[Widewing]

i will stay with my Chevy thank you!

come on over to my river, and bring your jeeps,, i promise we will drag them back out after you get them hung up or sunk!
 and if you don't get hung up,,,,well welcome to the party, now who brought the steaks?

Except for the Silverado, everything else is a specialized vehicle. Remember, we're talking factory stock. Chevy has nothing that can compete with any version of the the JK Wrangler, as delivered. Nothing. Ford offers their new Raptor, but that is basically a desert truck. Drive into a field of rocks and it isn't going far. Get it into deep mud and it'll be staying there.

As it is, every one of those "river" trucks looks like it would roll over quicker than a hooker with hemorrhoids.

None of them look as if they have much in terms of articulation.



My regards,

Widewing

[WWhiskey]

Except for the Silverado, everything else is a specialized vehicle. Remember, we're talking factory stock. Chevy has nothing that can compete with any version of the the JK Wrangler, as delivered. Nothing. Ford offers their new Raptor, but that is basically a desert truck. Drive into a field of rocks and it isn't going far. Get it into deep mud and it'll be staying there.

As it is, every one of those "river" trucks looks like it would roll over quicker than a hooker with hemorrhoids.


yet the only one that did, was the jeep!!!

None of them look as if they have much in terms of articulation.

My regards,
Widewing

I would put my  09 "stock" pickup,up against it and we could see who comes out on top!
 one place i know of, called "the stairs" i have never seen a stock jeep go up, at any angle, yet my stock chevy drives up it without slipping a tire, as for mud my tires are not all that great (stock never are) but it does very well, and my 38 years of driving on the farm thru the mud, snow and just about anything else, would probably still play a big factor,,, my years of mud racing might also be a problem for the jeep and i have spent almost as long climbing everything except the big rocks!!
 now having said that, i am not gonna go beat my nice new Chevy up proving my point, and if you want to beat your new jeep to death doing the same then your pockets are deeper than mine !

that's why we give the Rubicons such grief,,,, most of the "kids" that bring them out are too stupid to understand, to be the best, to climb the big hills, to go thru the deep mud, chances are you will still break it, and that chance grows profoundly  as there skill level decreases, and even more when it's daddy's money as well.
I like the Jeeps! i really do, but to go and four wheel like i like to, I am not going to spend that amount of money on a new Rubicon, only to know it will break when i can spend 6 or 8 thousand and build a river truck that will  go anywhere i want to go, while the "stock" jeeps, sit and watch or wait to be pulled along!

[CAP1]

my favorite thing about jeeps, is that i make lots of money off of them when they break down. 

and they do a lot. 

[Widewing]

I would put my  09 "stock" pickup,up against it and we could see who comes out on top!

That's akin to saying, "let's jump off the roof and see if it hurts." A Silverado is a top notch pickup. It is, however, utterly outclassed by a JK Rubicon off road. Hell, if you saw the video at the beginning of this thread, you would see a stock Wrangler Sahara climb a 5' rock face. Here's the video again..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M

This is a stock Sahara, no lockers. Street tires. A Rubicon with lockers and KM2s would have made it look easy. Your Silverado.... Zero chance.

I believe that the Jeep Nation off road club out of San Antonio has an event planned for a weekend this summer at the Canadian River Bridge, not far from you. Look them up and ask to join them on their ride.

Also, Project JK has a Texas chapter. I can give you some contacts if you want to go out with them.


My regards,

Widewing

[saggs]

(Image removed from quote.)
I would put my  09 "stock" pickup,up against it and we could see who comes out on top!
 one place i know of, called "the stairs" i have never seen a stock jeep go up, at any angle, yet my stock chevy drives up it without slipping a tire,

I'm a gonna side with Widewing on this one, 90% of pickups do not have the approach/departure angles to go places a Wrangler could go.  Those Jeep drivers must not be any good if they can't follow a pickup (with a much worse approach angle, and longer wheelbase) up some steps  Pickup trucks are not designed as off-road fun vehicles, they are designed as work vehicles.  Take pride if you want that your Chevy can haul more, or tow more then a Jeep, but it's not designed for serious off-roading like a Jeep.

As for that "river truck" I too think it looks a little over the top ridiculous.  Over the top ridiculous works for me on a Beetle, but not on a Jimmy.

None of them look as if they have much in terms of articulation.



My regards,

Widewing

Keep in mind if all your doing is slogging through mud bogs and rivers you don't really need articulation, or low gearing, just big huge swampers and gobs of power.

[saggs]

Hell, if you saw the video at the beginning of this thread, you would see a stock Wrangler Sahara climb a 5' rock face. Here's the video again..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M

This is a stock Sahara, no lockers. Street tires. A Rubicon with lockers and KM2s would have made it look easy. Your Silverado.... Zero chance.


My regards,

Widewing

I agree a Wrangler out performs a Chevy off-road Widewing.  BUT I just hafta say that I'm not that impressed with that video you tout so highly.  I mean come on, his right side was right of the step and had easy traction, with no step, and his spotter made a rock ramp for him on the left side, pile up enough rocks and you could drive that in a Prius.  With the rocks placed there for the Jeep, I think most stock small SUVs could drive that line, 4Runners, FJs, Broncos, Blazers, Xterras, Rodeos, RS Troopers, Samurais, Pathfinders, Raiders  I'd bet any of them (with a decent driver and spotter) could do that line as the Jeep did it.  Only reason I see a Silverado couldn't make that is getting hung up due to the long wheelbase.  I fail to see what's so impressive about it.

[Widewing]

I agree a Wrangler out performs a Chevy off-road Widewing.  BUT I just hafta say that I'm not that impressed with that video you tout so highly.  I mean come on, his right side was right of the step and had easy traction, with no step, and his spotter made a rock ramp for him on the left side, pile up enough rocks and you could drive that in a Prius.  With the rocks placed there for the Jeep, I think most stock small SUVs could drive that line, 4Runners, FJs, Broncos, Blazers, Xterras, Rodeos, RS Troopers, Samurais, Pathfinders, Raiders  I'd bet any of them (with a decent driver and spotter) could do that line as the Jeep did it.  Only reason I see a Silverado couldn't make that is getting hung up due to the long wheelbase.  I fail to see what's so impressive about it.

That Sahara has a 44.6 degree approach angle running 32s. Not one of the currently produced vehicles listed above does better than 32 degrees. That means they can't even get a wheel on the rock before crashing the bumper or valance. None come close to the Jeep's ground clearance and break over angle. So, none could get the wheels on the rock. All would bottom badly, and require a huge pile of rocks to get clearance. Finally, each would hang up on their rear bumpers. I have doubts that any of the others listed (except maybe the Samurai) have the approach angle required to even get a wheel on the rock.

By the way, the biggest problem for the Silverado would be destroying its bumper just trying to get the wheels on the rock. He doesn't have to worry about the long wheel base high-centering. The Silverado will never get that far.

FJ Cruiser approach/departure angles: 32°/30° 9.1" of ground clearance.
Xterra approach/departure angles: 30.5°/27.3° 9.5" of ground clearance.
Pathfinder approach/departure angles: 29.8°/24.3° 9.0" of ground clearance (virtually the same as a lowly Patriot).
Sahara approach/departure angles: 44.6°/40.6° 10.3" of ground clearance (10.4" for a Sport on Goodyears, and 10.2" for a Rubicon on BFG KM2s).


My regards,

Widewing

[saggs]

That Sahara has a 44.6 degree approach angle running 32s. Not one of the currently produced vehicles listed above does better than 32 degrees. That means they can't even get a wheel on the rock before crashing the bumper or valance. None come close to the Jeep's ground clearance and break over angle. So, none could get the wheels on the rock. All would bottom badly, and require a huge pile of rocks to get clearance. Finally, each would hang up on their rear bumpers. I have doubts that any of the others listed (except maybe the Samurai) have the approach angle required to even get a wheel on the rock.

By the way, the biggest problem for the Silverado would be destroying its bumper just trying to get the wheels on the rock. He doesn't have to worry about the long wheel base high-centering. The Silverado will never get that far.

FJ Cruiser approach/departure angles: 32°/30° 9.1" of ground clearance.
Xterra approach/departure angles: 30.5°/27.3° 9.5" of ground clearance.
Pathfinder approach/departure angles: 29.8°/24.3° 9.0" of ground clearance (virtually the same as a lowly Patriot).
Sahara approach/departure angles: 44.6°/40.6° 10.3" of ground clearance (10.4" for a Sport on Goodyears, and 10.2" for a Rubicon on BFG KM2s).



My regards,

Widewing

You miss my point, with the rocks the guy placed there to ramp his left side up, a great approach angle is no longer needed.  The Jeep used those rocks, why can't everyone else.  Sure a Pathfinder or Xterra might need one more rock there then the Jeep, and they might drag the rear bumper a bit, but they'd still make it I think.  I just don't see what's so extraordinary about what that Jeep did there.  That looks less difficult to me then the Golden Crack, or Top of the World trail in Moab which thousands of Jeeps and Hummers and Toyotas and everything else do every year.   I've done Top of the World in my Rodeo, it has several steps comparable to that with rocks strewn about that folks use to cheat, I don't feel bad about using them.  (I'm not yet stupid enough to try the crack without a front locker though)

I mean no offense, maybe I should be impressed, but I'm just not.  I guess the whole rock pile thing ruined it for me.  He shoulda just dragged it up there on its frame with the back left wheel just hanging, that would be more impressive.

"Currently produced vehicles"  what's with that, are we no longer allowed to drive older vehicles, how come you throw those out of the equation?  I guarantee a '68 Bronco or Scout on 32s could drive right up that. 

BTW does the Sahara come stock with 32" tires.  The ones I see around town look more like 235/55-16s or maybe 245/70s.  I know I see a lot of Wranglers around with tires that are definitely 30" or smaller.

Anyway I'm gonna ignore this thread now, I don't want to argue, like I said I'm not ripping on Jeeps really.  I honestly don't care what people drive, I care what they do, and how they act.

[Wolf14]

I have a '94 XJ and an '04 TJ.

On more than a few occasions I have been asked how do I like owning/ driving a Jeep.

My reply is pretty much that I love them and that I dont think a person can go wrong buying a jeep if its truly a vehicle they are interested in. It'll go pretty much anywhere you want it to go and in almost any kind of weather. Providing its driven within its limits, its not the death trap folks want to make it out to be.

I dont know how long I'm destined to walk this earth, but for however long it is, I plan on owning a Jeep.

Not to sound cliche, Its a Jeep thing I guess.
Folks either like or dont like them.

wolfy

[RTHolmes]

... with 60deg articulation between the axles and a few tonnes of stuff in the back 

[Widewing]

You miss my point, with the rocks the guy placed there to ramp his left side up, a great approach angle is no longer needed.  The Jeep used those rocks, why can't everyone else.  Sure a Pathfinder or Xterra might need one more rock there then the Jeep, and they might drag the rear bumper a bit, but they'd still make it I think.  I just don't see what's so extraordinary about what that Jeep did there.  That looks less difficult to me then the Golden Crack, or Top of the World trail in Moab which thousands of Jeeps and Hummers and Toyotas and everything else do every year.   I've done Top of the World in my Rodeo, it has several steps comparable to that with rocks strewn about that folks use to cheat, I don't feel bad about using them.  (I'm not yet stupid enough to try the crack without a front locker though)

I didn't miss your point at all. I simply pointed out that stacking rocks will not help if you can't get a wheel up on the rock in the first place. Approach angle is key to getting your wheels on the rock face. None of the current vehicles you mentioned have enough approach angle. It's simple geometry. The only way they could do it is to stack rocks in steps a few feet high. Then, once they get the front wheels up, they would have to reset the stepped rocks to get the rear tires high enough to clear the frame and rear bumper. In short, they would directed to the bypass by the spotters. Wranglers drive the Golden Crack without lockers. Jeep's patented BLD is more than enough. Moab's Top of the World trail is rated as a 3 for difficulty. Jeep's Trail Rated system uses a 5 difficulty rating as the minimum. In other words, any Jeep model bearing the Trail Rated badge was tested and certified on terrain rated no less than a difficulty of 5 without damage to the vehicle. That comes directly from Loren Trotter. Loren is an engineer in Active Chassis Control Systems, and a very active off-roader.

I mean no offense, maybe I should be impressed, but I'm just not.  I guess the whole rock pile thing ruined it for me.  He shoulda just dragged it up there on its frame with the back left wheel just hanging, that would be more impressive.

It is obvious that the Sahara driver is a noob. An experienced driver would not have bashed the frame as he did.

"Currently produced vehicles"  what's with that, are we no longer allowed to drive older vehicles, how come you throw those out of the equation?  I guarantee a '68 Bronco or Scout on 32s could drive right up that.

It's difficult to find approach and departure angle data for very old vehicles, so I didn't include those. After some digging, I found that a stock '68 Bronco had 40.6° or 45° on approach, depending upon tire options. 32" tires will not fit on a stock Bronco without a lift. They won't fit into the rear wheel well. Stock tires were 26.5" or 28" depending on options. Standard section widths were 6.5" or 7.5". Modern 32s measure 10.2 to 10.6 inches depending upon section ratio. My 33" tires have an 11.5 inch section and do not rub.



An early Bronco might make it over the obstacle. However, it doesn't have the traction aids the Sahara has. Thus, the task would be more difficult. I do agree that an early Bronco, lifted and fitted with 33" tires is an astounding climber. It was simply the best off road vehicle of its generation. Hell, it was better than almost anything made today. It was a shame that Ford switched to the big F-100 based version in 1978.

If Ford were to build this, I'd buy it.


Now here's a nicely built '68 Bronco...

BTW does the Sahara come stock with 32" tires.  The ones I see around town look more like 235/55-16s or maybe 245/70s.  I know I see a lot of Wranglers around with tires that are definitely 30" or smaller.

All JK Sahara versions are delivered with 255/70-18 tires that measure 32.1" in diameter. Rubicons are delivered with 32" 255/75-17 BFG KM2s. S optioned Sport models are delivered with 32" 255/75-17 Goodyear Wranglers. Base Sport models are delivered with 30.5" 245/75-16 Goodyear Wranglers. Dealers order S optioned Sports at a ratio of about 10:1 versus the base model. Indeed, base models are hard to find.

Anyway I'm gonna ignore this thread now, I don't want to argue, like I said I'm not ripping on Jeeps really.  I honestly don't care what people drive, I care what they do, and how they act.

This isn't an argument, it's a discussion. I'm merely stating that there is no stock vehicle that you can buy new today that could tackle that obstacle that the Sahara climbed (other than another short wheel base JK model). Not even stock JK Wrangler Unlimited could manage it, due to its much longer wheel base.


My regards,

Widewing

(Edited to add photo)

[WWhiskey]

That's akin to saying, "let's jump off the roof and see if it hurts." A Silverado is a top notch pickup. It is, however, utterly outclassed by a JK Rubicon off road. Hell, if you saw the video at the beginning of this thread, you would see a stock Wrangler Sahara climb a 5' rock face. Here's the video again..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M

This is a stock Sahara, no lockers. Street tires. A Rubicon with lockers and KM2s would have made it look easy. Your Silverado.... Zero chance.

I believe that the Jeep Nation off road club out of San Antonio has an event planned for a weekend this summer at the Canadian River Bridge, not far from you. Look them up and ask to join them on their ride.

Also, Project JK has a Texas chapter. I can give you some contacts if you want to go out with them.


My regards,

Widewing

i watched your video! i am not impressed with the jeep, the spotter and driver did a good job of building a ramp with the rocks!  i can do that to!
 one thing i will give you, the jeep will damage itself less in the rocks, until it breaks, i don't really want to take a new pickup into the rocks, but the ridge that they climbed was not impressive, we have plenty of places like that at the Canadian river,( were i have been four wheeling for most of my life) and being good at climbing rocks does not make it the best of the best, there are many things that four wheeling includes besides getting thru a rock bed.
 you want to impress me, do it without moving the rocks, without the spotter.
 i hope you make it up this way with your jeep group, i would like to meet you, i can show you some really nice trails, from the top, if you ride along with me!(JK) you probably wont get to see them otherwise!
it is however all good! i like that people get out and play, we need more of it! your friends are welcome up this way,,, you might give me a count of jeeps coming tho, so i will know how many tow rigs to bring,
   just in-case they want to see some really good wheeling!
http://west-texasoutlaws.com/default.aspx
 these are my friends, tho i have not been a member for a few years, and for some reason most of the good pic.s and info seem to be missing!

[WWhiskey]

some jeeps at the Canadian river
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3NtWN-W0to