Maneuvering flaps on the P38

[LLogann]

NOPE.........  And you keep listening to other guys like you and me, instead of USAAF "real" manuals cupcake. 

Is 8 degrees the first notch of flaps on all the generic P38 flap  settings?

We're done here, you are on the list of non-repliers.  (Cause I have no time for young people)

[Traveler]

See Rule #4

[Murdr]

See Rule #4

Either 2 or 3 notches.  How can I say that?  Which one is it?  On an EM diagram above 225 you're better off with 2 notches.  Both settings are hitting the pilot's G limit, hence both give the same peak turn performance.  2 notches (20 degrees) offers less drag for the same performance at that speed range, hence the wise choice.  Below that speed range, 3 notches (30 degrees) offers a slightly more favorable instantanious turn rate and stall parameters.  At sustained rate of turn either notch yields almost the same dps, with 3 notches having a slower sustained speed.  

The 5 degrees either way from 50% deployment is not a huge performance issue.  If you are using them as perscribed "MANEUVERING FLAPS SHOULD BE EXTENDED ONLY LONG ENOUGH TO COMPLE PARTICULAR MANEUVER AND THE BE RETRACED IMMEDIATELY"~Ray Meskimen then you're likely in a speed range where it is a non-factor on turn performance.

[Traveler]

NOPE.........  And you keep listening to other guys like you and me, instead of USAAF "real" manuals cupcake. 

We're done here, you are on the list of non-repliers.  (Cause I have no time for young people)

I have always refered to a real manual.  And thanks for calling me young.

[Traveler]

Either 2 or 3 notches.  How can I say that?  Which one is it?  On an EM diagram above 225 you're better off with 2 notches.  Both settings are hitting the pilot's G limit, hence both give the same peak turn performance.  2 notches (20 degrees) offers less drag for the same performance at that speed range, hence the wise choice.  Below that speed range, 3 notches (30 degrees) offers a slightly more favorable instantanious turn rate and stall parameters.  At sustained rate of turn either notch yields almost the same dps, with 3 notches having a slower sustained speed. 

The 5 degrees either way from 50% deployment is not a huge performance issue.  If you are using them as perscribed "MANEUVERING FLAPS SHOULD BE EXTENDED ONLY LONG ENOUGH TO COMPLE PARTICULAR MANEUVER AND THE BE RETRACED IMMEDIATELY"~Ray Meskimen then you're likely in a speed range where it is a non-factor on turn performance.

Thanks for the information.  Its interesting to see how in the case of applying Combat flaps. The historical flap control did a better job then the generic flap control in AH.     One preset ident for the correct run out of flaps Vs. a need to change settings, three up and three down based on speed , AOA, G’s.  Thanks again for answering the question.

[Murdr]

You're welcome.

[FLS]

Its apparent to me that HiTech Creations will never change the generic flap controls for a more accurate model.  

They've changed things before. I doubt any of us want accuracy more than they do. If you've been here a few years then you've seen A/C changes already. If they don't change to something like setting any intermediate position I'm sure they have good reasons for it.

Edit: If you convince them that the 3rd notch of flaps should be 50% extension we'll probably see that soon.

[Traveler]

They've changed things before. I doubt any of us want accuracy more than they do. If you've been here a few years then you've seen A/C changes already. If they don't change to something like setting any intermediate position I'm sure they have good reasons for it.

Edit: If you convince them that the 3rd notch of flaps should be 50% extension we'll probably see that soon.

I'd rather see it changed to the first notch of flaps would always extend the flaps to the maneuvering setting, if the aircraft had a maneuvering flaps that is.  That would put it more in line with the P51 and P47.

[FLS]

I think that might be a problem since the P-47 and P-51 do not use a 50% extension as the maneuvering setting. The ability to stop the P-38 flaps at any angle might not be easily modeled but it's reasonable to give people the choice of a couple of useful settings prior to 50%. Limiting the P-38 to full up, 50% and full down wouldn't be better than what we have now so assuming that setting any angle is impractical, the question is what compromise do you choose. HTC choose to split the range into 5 equally spaced settings. The flap handle in the P-38 is in the middle position for the maneuvering setting.If you correlate that to keystrokes it would be the third key press not the first.

[gyrene81]

Traveler, though I somewhat agree with what you're getting at, you're being random with what you're looking for...how about addressing not just the P-38 flaps and consider the flaps for all of the existing fighters? I was informed on another flap issue post that Pyro had some choices to make in how to program the flaps, rather than customizing the flaps for every single plane, the decision was made to give each plane 5 settings beginning at the highest documented speed at which flaps could safely be deployed...with the exception of the Spitfires which only had 1 flap setting.

If you have ever had to do any programming, you would understand the difficulty in not only trying to procure actual documetation (especially from Russian and German sources)...but when it comes to coding and testing, it's mind numbing and very time consuming. You should try emailing or pm'ing Pyro and HiTech rather than muddle up the wishlist with rantings based on less than full knowledge of how things are done within HTC. And you really should get it out of your head that AH is a full flight simulator.

[Traveler]

Traveler, though I somewhat agree with what you're getting at, you're being random with what you're looking for...how about addressing not just the P-38 flaps and consider the flaps for all of the existing fighters? I was informed on another flap issue post that Pyro had some choices to make in how to program the flaps, rather than customizing the flaps for every single plane, the decision was made to give each plane 5 settings beginning at the highest documented speed at which flaps could safely be deployed...with the exception of the Spitfires which only had 1 flap setting.

If you have ever had to do any programming, you would understand the difficulty in not only trying to procure actual documetation (especially from Russian and German sources)...but when it comes to coding and testing, it's mind numbing and very time consuming. You should try emailing or pm'ing Pyro and HiTech rather than muddle up the wishlist with rantings based on less than full knowledge of how things are done within HTC. And you really should get it out of your head that AH is a full flight simulator.

My original post was specific about the make and model of aircraft.  It was a Wishlist forum specific to the P38 and Maneuvering flaps.  I have not been ranting and I have tried to stay on point.  I an unaware of how making a specific WishList request is in anyway muddling up the forum.  I don’t know how to respond to your suggestion that one needs to understand the inner working of HTC before being able to make a suggestion.  Is that even possible? 

[Hap]

It is what it is Traveler.  I like your questions and posts btw.

[Karnak]

gyrene81,

Ki-84 only has two flap positions.  I am sure there are other aircraft that vary as well.

[Masherbrum]

We really need to get the "Flaps on the 38" solidified.   Is the plane THAT L337?   

[gyrene81]

My original post was specific about the make and model of aircraft.  It was a Wishlist forum specific to the P38 and Maneuvering flaps.  I have not been ranting and I have tried to stay on point.  I an unaware of how making a specific WishList request is in anyway muddling up the forum.  I don’t know how to respond to your suggestion that one needs to understand the inner working of HTC before being able to make a suggestion.  Is that even possible? 

It's not a wish...you should try to read your posts from the point of view of what other people see...it reads like an accusation of intentional error for just a single aircraft, when in reality it's not...all of the aircraft share the same programming consolations incorporated by HTC...I've looked through 51 pages of your posts and I don't see a single post in the Aircraft and Vehicles section where more knowlegeable people tend to address such discussions as you have brought up here. Now if you had posed this and the landing gear issue in that section, you would have gotten some useful information that you could then use to post a legitimate wishlist inquiry that would start with "Can we get the..." or "I would like the..."

As for the 50% at 250mph being a useful setting...that is not a maneuver setting...if you read the POH there was a flap control setting on the flap lever labeled "maneuver" and further investigation reveals that setting limited the deployment to 8 degrees as a "maneuver" setting which was engineered for high speed combat maneuverability and supposedly allowed the P-38s to out turn 109s...the 50% flap deployment was used primarily for take offs on fields with less than ideal conditions for normal take off without flaps (from various pilot testimonials)...in the G model the flaps were reinforced so that the flaps could be deployed to 50% at speeds up to 250mph without damage......there are a whole bunch of people in AH who fly the 109s and would love just 5 degrees of flap over 200 mph.



I'm not a P-38 fan so I'm not going to do all the research for you, but what I have learned from discussions on these boards regarding some similarly perceived irregularities on other aircraft...is that what we want may not always be possible without a lot of work from a small staff of people who do a lot to create as good a product as any available and interact with their customers.