Author Topic: Jet Performance Graphs  (Read 2524 times)

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2010, 10:54:57 PM »
Greyeagle is more right than you are, and I am confident that my sources and personal experiences are far more relevant than yours.  Extrapolate all you want, but until you read the flight test report and the FWIC tactics talk, or actually take an F-15 up against a flanker or fulcrum, you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.  But you can't, and never will.  I spent over a year where I flew 4-5 sorties per month replicating fulcrum and flanker threats using the best available data, and I've worked with both former GAF mig-29 pilots and F-15C drivers who spent weeks flying DACT against the fulcrums before we had the benefit of our new helmet mounted sights and aim-9x. 

Again, Grayeagle is more right than you are.  I will go further to say that although the flanker is a very capable aircraft, the airshow maneuvers are not very good at all for extrapolating anything except how good the plane is at waving the nose around at low airspeeds.  A well flown F-18 with some flight control software tweaks would probably be able to pretty much the same maneuvers, slightly modified of course to account for the lower thrust to weight ratio.

In the end, the aircraft and weapons are matched well enough that if neither side knows the exact tactics used by the other side, the edge is probably still the US F-15 due to the sheer number of flight hours an F-15 pilot gets and because of the very good cockpit ergonomics and system integration.  If the flanker pilot knows the US tactics however (as I did whenever I "cheated" while replicating russian fighter threats), it then comes down entirely to individual pilot skill even without resorting to the radical maneuvering capabilities of the flanker.  If they're both cheating, then the better pilot wins even though the flanker can pretty much turn up it's own butt, because the F-15 is easier to fly and tactically employ.  Plus the amraam is a freaking deathstick, and 2 amraams coming at you are nearly impossible to defeat so the flanker's maneuverability may not mean anything in most engagements.


Nice post Eagl.
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Offline eagl

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2010, 11:26:37 PM »
A follow-up regarding mig-25...  Without going into many details, the mig-25 is one of the more challenging threats an F-15 driver faces, because it really is fast and high-flying.  Different opponent fighters will have different roles, so the scenarios where an F-15 driver faces a mig-25 will be biased in favor of the mig, simply because the mig's mission would be tailored for the capabilities of the mig-25.  Chasing down our AWACS or other high-value assets (such as U-2, jstars, etc), or intercepting incoming bombers are examples where the fact that the mig-25 turns like a truck simply is not relevant.  Likewise, the mig-29's small size and limited range wouldn't likely be a deciding factor when flying into a nest of the little suckers.  And an su-27 in a forward offensive counter-air role or escorting their own strike package may not have the luxury to park in one spot to mix it up in a dogfight.

All in all, I still prefer the F-15 over all of them, knowing full well what their real capabilities are.  For that matter, I still prefer the F-15 over the viper or hornet because of the eagle's versatility, loadout, range, and the performance edge it has over most other aircraft in most flight regimes.  It has lots of gas, can go very high and fast, can bring 8 amazing missiles to the fight, and has a radar the size of that new video scoreboard monstrosity hanging in the new dallas cowboys stadium.  That radar matched to the amraam, employed from over 40,000 ft at mach 1.5+, is absolutely superb, and the F-15 is still one of the few fighters in the world with the gas and low altitude speed to intercept and chase down low altitude high speed intruders as well.  System integration is outstanding, and the pilot has a great view of the world from the high seating position compared to most of the russian designs which have the pilot seated relatively low, with somewhat restricted visibility.  Add a helmet mounted sight and aim-9x, and the eagle still matches or surpasses the mig-29 and su-27 *as a complete system* even in a close-range dogfight.

The F-22...  That plane is in yet another class entirely.  Awesome capability, its main drawbacks are that it is tough to maintain and very expensive.  The JSF won't come close to the F-22 in the air to air realm and it can't carry half the air to ground loadout as an F-15E, but it's going to be a really capable F-16 replacement if it works as advertised.  The next gen russian fighter...  I suspect that they'll have trouble getting and keeping the radar cross section down below that of a super hornet, but I have no real data other than putting a critical eye on some detailed photos I ran across.

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Offline Elfie

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2010, 09:19:01 AM »
So you're saying a guy that is comparing generation 4 and 4.5 fighters to the ones that lost the Bekaa Valley Air War is.......... right?  :headscratch:

Seriously?

The guy is using the Mig25 as a yardstick to the Flanker.  You really gotta be kidding me, with respect to your service, which is a few years back, if I recall.  The Russians have been working hard in the last ten years to get their electronics up to western standards (Irbis E, etc)

You're a Marine Biologist correct? So where exactly.....does your expertise in this matter come from? Just wondering.....   :headscratch:
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Offline SIK1

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2010, 09:20:52 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:28:07 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline rabbidrabbit

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2010, 11:33:39 AM »
See Rule #8
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:28:16 AM by Skuzzy »

Offline Grits

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2010, 11:41:56 AM »
That is a pretty typical attitude for the Academia of this country.

Offline indy007

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2010, 11:44:27 AM »
A follow-up regarding mig-25... 

Unreleated, odd-ball F-15 question.

Does the gun have any upward tilt to it at all, and how scary is it to strafe with? I've read some articles recently that at least one pilot went in on a strafing run, and the pilots aren't happy about how nose low they have to go at low level to make the attacks.

Offline rabbidrabbit

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2010, 11:49:58 AM »
One would have to think it's pretty much lined up with the axis but I'll defer to the experts.

Offline indy007

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2010, 12:15:38 PM »
One would have to think it's pretty much lined up with the axis but I'll defer to the experts.

I know the F-16 has a "built in dispersion" that spits out a conical fire pattern. I just can't remember if the thing is tilted up a few degrees for lobbing the shells out there.

Offline Elfie

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2010, 12:47:07 PM »
I know the F-16 has a "built in dispersion" that spits out a conical fire pattern. I just can't remember if the thing is tilted up a few degrees for lobbing the shells out there.

All the Gatling cannons on American fighters have some built in dispersion afaik. The F-15 and F-4 have an 8 foot pattern at 1000 yards.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2010, 01:30:04 PM »
He's the American version of Beetle.  He knows everything and anyone who disagrees is clearly inferior.  He'll even post up all sorts of marginal evidence as absolute proof.  Once faced with clear evidence to the contrary he'll question your intellect and general credibility but never admit he was wrong.  It's beneath his ego to treat others as equals or be responsible for himself.  That's OK, it all adds to the spice of life.

Someone should ask Moray if the Germans had any cavalry units during WW2.  That was a fun thread  :rofl


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Offline RTR

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2010, 01:31:28 PM »
In ref to the F15 and the SU27, I gotta say I have probably been closer to these two birds than most here, save eagl, and can unequivocally say that in my opinion the SU27 is superior to the F15 in all areas save cockpit ergonomics and weapons/ avionics. It is out and out a beast of a fighter.

That being said, your F15 drivers are probably better trained as eagl has pointed out and better equipped to deal with any given scenario.

On a pure airframe to airframe match up..Su27 hands down.

Just my humble $.02

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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2010, 01:36:07 PM »
ad hominem attack

you'll probably want to delete that before skuzzy does
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Offline rabbidrabbit

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2010, 01:38:02 PM »
Maybe I am wrong but wouldn't the whole package come into the picture?  Theater electronics coverage, training, networking and sharing of information etc..  It's not like a 1 on 1 duel within visual range anymore.  Seeing your opponent is 95% electronic.

Offline Bronk

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2010, 03:24:13 PM »
Hmmm modern fighter knowledge.

F-15 driver or sea turtle gynecologist. Who do I rely on for more credible info?  decisions....decisions  :headscratch:
See Rule #4