Battle of France (1940)

[Ack-Ack]

• Bad strategic planning on the part of the BEF and French high command
• Failure in creating strategic and tactical planes to fight a 'modern' war
• Lack of political will by France's chief ally to fully commit resources to defend France

Granted, these are gross simplifications as to the causes of the Fall of France but nonetheless, cited as the principle causes.


ack-ack

[oakranger]

Thx i will look into the books.  As far as the topic, bring up anything as to why France was defeated in six week.  I say it was the France and U.K. that really never done anything as far as improving and inventing new battle tactics. This is from what i been reading.  And France leadership was not much help at all.  They should have attack Germany while Germany was busy playing in Poland.  A perfect opportunity to change the course of the war.

[Kermit de frog]

Thx i will look into the books.  As far as the topic, bring up anything as to why France was defeated in six week.  I say it was the France and U.K. that really never done anything as far as improving and inventing new battle tactics. This is from what i been reading.  And France leadership was not much help at all.  They should have attack Germany while Germany was busy playing in Poland.  A perfect opportunity to change the course of the war.

The time period after Poland and before the Battle of France was called the Phoney War for the lack of fighting on the Western border of Germany.  I assume Britain and France were busying preparing for a war already in progress.

British Foreign Policy should have let the Germans take back the Polish corridor in exchange for peace...

[E25280]

Thx i will look into the books.  As far as the topic, bring up anything as to why France was defeated in six week.  I say it was the France and U.K. that really never done anything as far as improving and inventing new battle tactics. This is from what i been reading.  And France leadership was not much help at all.  They should have attack Germany while Germany was busy playing in Poland.  A perfect opportunity to change the course of the war.

Tactics have a lot to do with it, but you can't discount pure dumb luck.

I read of an incident where a German staff officer carrying the invasion plan in the west accidentally landed on the Belgian side of the border in heavy fog.  The plans were for an invasion through Holland and northern Belgium and into northern France.  Because these plans were in Allied hands, the Germans needed to improvise a new invasion plan -- and the push through the Ardennes was the result.

Had the original plan gone into effect, the bulk of the German army would have run smack into the British Expeditionary Force and a large portion of the French army as they advanced through northern Belgium following "Plan Dyle."  No telling exactly what that would have meant, but most likely the Allies would have been able to stop the German advance in Belgium.

Instead, the main thrust was delivered against the most understrength and inexperienced army that France fielded in 1940.  The breakthrough achieved there encircled the bulk of the Allied forces as they advanced to the Dyle river, in effect defeating them without a head on attack.  Only the so-called "miracle" of the Dunkirk evacuation prevented it from being the Western Allies' Stalingrad.

[Hap]

To get a leg up on what happened, France needed to ignore Belgium's neutrality. 

[SFRT - Frenchy]

The flower was given by local womens, as stated here no one in France wanted to go to war, due to the stigmatas of WW1. The flower was probably an act of kindness to help ease the pain. Hell ... doesn't take a genius to figure out how u'll feel if u were draged away from your house, given 5 bullets and an old gun, and asked to go "fight" up north.

My GF ended up runing for a week, scavaging on what he could find till he met with a "Chasseur Alpin" unit. Spent the rest of the war playing hide & seek with the Germans, ambushing in the mountains. Made a erman officer prisoner at the end of the war ... while runing away, the German officer was runing too, they bumped into each other in a corner, my GF drew his gun first.

My other GF was in the resistance, ended up being captured, tortured and deported. Survived the "work camp", ended up being exchanged.

His brother wasn't so lucky, he ended up burning alive in a French tank that was set on fire by a German flamthrower. The crew was locked in and couldn't escape as the French officers lokced them up in so they had to fight to the death.

Sucky war for the French the BOF, far from the glorious D day stories.

[Plawranc]

I can sum it up for Britain.

Britain, a huge naval power. Its fleet was larger than the US pacific fleet and the Kreigsmarine COMBINED. A huge amount of experience for their sailors and tonnes of modern ships including the KG5 and POW.

BUT, this had a consequence. Britain has always used naval superiority to ensure the survival of the empire, Trafalger and The Armada are just a two examples. But in the modern world after both WW1 and the wall street crash left the other two services unequipped, undermanned and untrained. Even with the modernization in response to Germany's resurgence there is no way Britain could revive its enourmous armies that it once had in the time to spare.

And as for the airforce, it was far away from the super effective air superiority weapon of 41 to 45. It had Hawker Harts and Bristol Bulldogs with the odd Fury here and there. No avgas reserves, no modern fighters or bombers and an outdated doctrine with no pilots to use it. All these things although remedied to some extent before the outbreak of war stood no chance in open combat with the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe who were fully : manned, trained, equipped and morale sky high.

[MiloMorai]

The BEF was doing quite well vs the Germans until the French line collapsed. They then had to fall back. OK retreat, but the German advance was so fast they were trapped at Dunquerke.

[Obie303]

Fascinating story Frenchy.  Many of the books I've read have, for the most part, portraited the French Military as giving up at the onset of many battles. 

I have always learned to look deeper into the stories and who is doing the story telling.  There are many myths regarding WWII and it can be difficult to determine the facts.  The Invasion of Poland and the Polish military is full of them too.

Please feel free to share more stories from your family's past. 

[oakranger]

Tactics have a lot to do with it, but you can't discount pure dumb luck.

I read of an incident where a German staff officer carrying the invasion plan in the west accidentally landed on the Belgian side of the border in heavy fog.  The plans were for an invasion through Holland and northern Belgium and into northern France.  Because these plans were in Allied hands, the Germans needed to improvise a new invasion plan -- and the push through the Ardennes was the result.

Huh, that is interesting. Why the hell would that officer would be carrying the invasion plane with him?
The French where getting many reports that Germany was starting to build up the army long their western borders. But they choose to ignore it.

[Lusche]

Huh, that is interesting. Why the hell would that officer would be carrying the invasion plane with him?

Read this

[Bruv119]

The BEF was doing quite well vs the Germans until the French line collapsed. They then had to fall back. OK retreat, but the German advance was so fast they were trapped at Dunquerke.

with really poor communication and a lack of decisive action from the French generals stuck in their old ways it was bound to happen.

The maginot line was believed to be 'impregnable' so what did gerry do?   go around it of course they ain't stoopid!  In short the Battle of France was a catalogue of errors that resulted in total defeat.

As for Britain not commiting enough resources, Dowding quite rightly being a realist knew that saving France was a waste of time, even Churchill tried sending more fighter squadrons to their wreckage.  Luckily Dowding called it right.

You have to remember Hitler was secretly re-arming as soon as he took over in 1933 with the intent of doing everything he did.   All of those years were a massive head start and thinking he was going to be reasonable was just wishful thinking.   Before Kermit chimes in  yes he was a madman and a tyrant whose only goals were domination,  revenge and genocide.

The hurricane squadrons did an excellent job in terms of being vastly outnumbered yet accounting for several Luftwaffe losses.

[Lusche]

You have to remember Hitler was secretly re-arming as soon as he took over in 1931

 

[Kermit de frog]

Hitler wasn't chancellor until 1933.

[Kermit de frog]

Also, the British failed in Norway like they did in France.  To blame the French for the defeat in France isn't accurate as the BEF have shared mistakes in that campaign.