No Enemy Icons, The new standard

[Vulcan]

I'm sure that they would have. However, beside the first sortie, Combat Challenge was a 2 hour furball over the English Channel with no icons.

I showed up because...

 - I have the time alloted each Saturday with the family as MINE
 - I like to fly with the squad
 - it was a historical (kind of) setup, I enjoy axis vs allied setups

No enemy icons had zero to do with me showing up.

Oh and for the noobs that think stereopsis is good for 10m:

TABLE 1.  Maximum distance of stereopsis for different stereoacuity thresholds (PD = 64)
Threshold (arc seconds)  Radians Maximum distance (m)
2  9.696 x 106 6600
10  4.848 x 105  1320
20  9.696 x 105  660
40  1.939 x 104  330
80  3.879 x 104  165
 
The average person has ~ 30 arc seconds of stereoacuity.

So typically people will expeirnce stereopsis good to at least 300m, maybe up to 600m.

[gyrene81]

Krusty there were a lot more people on the Combat Challenge until the first contacts were made and people got shot down quickly...I watched 20 jump right after that...at least one said in 200 that they weren't sticking around because of the lack of enemy icons.



I applaud Vulcan for sticking around and giving it the full run...but I'm puzzled as to why he objects to no enemy icons becoming a normal thing even though he obviously had no problems with it...using that VR equipment clearly gives him an edge over the rest of us with flat screens but then, are you using the VR headset or not?

Err perhaps you should check the icon threads. You'll note that I've played AH quite a lot in stereoscopic 3D. I use a Z-800 Virtual Reality Headset with Dual OLED Displays (have done for about 4 years now). Full Depth perception needs a lot more fidelity than any computer game can provide, and whilst you can play AH in stereoscopic 3D (something I doubt you've done) the majority of users do not have this tech available to them (and there are side issues with 3D tech and peoples vision I won't go into).

So, yet again you fail - massively.

The reason I stopped using SS 3D was a video card upgrade, I went from a 7600GT to a GTX 285. The new nvidia drivers do not support 3rd party 3D products - only their own 3D Vision stuff. I've been experimenting with the IZ3D driver, but that doesn't work well with AH. Rumour is ATI are releasing DirectX S3D drivers with their 10.3 driver release, so I might have to switch camps from nvidia to ATI.

I don't need the VR headset to see depth...but I imagine it could be really cool if AH was fully modelled for VR use...then again, there would likely be a lot of people complaining about the change.

[Peyton]

Don't mess with a good thing...leave icons on.

Thanks

[gusman]

Its time to end this. I picked the title to get attention. Its worked. Now turn the damn icons off and put the old men to bed. 11:00 eastern is past all their bed times anyway. I'm really sick of people opining who were not there and did not see it, but bash it they do. Its the mark of a fool. And we seem to be living in the age of the fool.

Move on and lets join the 21st century
Vlkyrie1

 

Hey Valkyrie, Those old men that you want to put to bed are the main reason why the FSO is such a great event. These guys created and nurtured the event  and have made it the best thing in Aces High. You get rid of those guys and you are flying the event with the likes of grneaglejr. A bunch of guys who don't follow orders and just do what they please.
 A lot of the rules of the FSO are designed to ensure that people see combat. We do not want to fly around chasing ghosts. The 801 FAA saw a total of  4 enemy planes last frame. 2 P40s (I think!  ) that did not want to fight, a B25 on the deck that I was lucky to spot and a hurricane flown with great skill by spIVeyCH who had the good graces to stay and dogfight us.
The one thing that will destroy FSO is lack of combat action and you can’t fight them if you can’t find them. I flew in the Combat Challenge and the main reason that furball developed on the channel was because people want to fight and kept going back to the same spot to see action. In a FSO frame people have tasks that they must complete so creating a furball is not going to happen.

So to sum it all up: no icon = no action = demise of  FSO

Cheers,
gus

[FiLtH]

  I did the last combat challenge. It was fun. Its just not what I want for FSO.

[boomerlu]

I don't need the VR headset to see depth...but I imagine it could be really cool if AH was fully modelled for VR use...then again, there would likely be a lot of people complaining about the change.

It is physically impossible to have depth perception with one image source. It is therefore impossible to have accurate depth perception of in-game objects with just a computer monitor. I could engineer any number of viewing scenarios in which a proper stereo image would make the difference in assessing distance to an object. Hint: how can you know whether an object is large or just very close to you?

Edit: here's a VERY simple example - you are looking up at a 109 200m away from you painted against a completely blue sky and there are no cockpit references. You zoom in. The 109 instantly becomes twice as big. Without stereo imaging and without the knowledge that you had just hit the zoom key, it would be impossible to tell if the 109 is bigger because of zooming in or is actually closer to you.

What you would have if you only looked out of one eye is an ILLUSION of depth from your years of experience estimating the sizes of objects (i.e., a car isn't 1 mile wide) and your familiarity with objects and distances and some added information from movement (i.e., you can somewhat make up for having only one eye by moving around and viewing the same object from different angles). In this way, you can say that a car is about 100 yards away because a car is about 10m long and its proportionally the correct size based on intuition. This is what you have in Aces High without a VR headset or something like NVidia's stereo goggles. To say otherwise is a blatant falsehood. If it were anything else, nobody would even attempt to make something like a VR headset.

If you've ever tried VR equipment, NVidia stereo goggles, or watched any movie in 3D, the difference is as clear as night and day. While a flat screen movie can convey the illusion of depth (i.e., you can tell whether a gun is behind or in front of a person), a stereoscopic movie conveys true depth and does so viscerally - you might actually be scared that the image on the screen is jumping out at you.

Edit: finally, there is a very good physical/mathematical reason for this. To put it very simply, what you see with one eye you can only determine the direction of, but when you add a second eye, the brain can then compute distance based on difference in directions between where the two eyes are pointing. In fact, that is exactly what happens, albeit your brain tells you this by giving a feeling as to the distance rather than a specific number.

[Delirium]

It is physically impossible to have depth perception with one image source. It is therefore impossible to have accurate depth perception of in-game objects with just a computer monitor.

We have all said that and it still hasn't sunk in to a particular few.

[gyrene81]

Sheezus...some people just read what they want...obviously context and comprehension do not exist around here...I'll try this again and read verbatim.

It is physically impossible to have depth perception with one image source. It is therefore impossible to have accurate depth perception of in-game objects with just a computer monitor. I could engineer any number of viewing scenarios in which a proper stereo image would make the difference in assessing distance to an object. Hint: how can you know whether an object is large or just very close to you?

So you don't misread or misquote me again...in the 3D realm of AH depth is fairly well modelled <---note that the words accurate or actual do not exist in the previous statement...obviously there is no literal depth perception as seen in the real world and not one person in this discussion said it does exist. However if depth perception were not emulated in some way in AH, it wouldn't be 3 dimensional and few people would be able to land a plane on a runway or ship without tearing up their aircraft or running into something...but AH is a 3 dimensional environment and as such depth has to be simulated in order to achieve that...for those harping on stereoscopic vision, try looking up stereoscopy or stereoscopic imaging.

any technique capable of recording three-dimensional visual information or creating the illusion of depth in an image

Almost everyone playing AH has a brain that is functional and that brain has the capacity to memorize...it also has the ability to associate...and with those two capabilities I can train my brain to associate relative approximate distances to objects within AH without having to see icons...so can anyone else with a functional brain.

Obviously no one could jump into the scaled down 3D world of AH and be able to determine distances in the same manner they do in real life without some point of reference within the environment, hence the reason icons with distance indicators exist...however, just like real life we can train our brains to determine distances within the 3D realm of AH exactly the same way we learned how to determine distances in the real world...perhaps that may not be possible for everyone but I'm being optimistic and giving the benefit of the doubt that everyone in AH has a functional brain...since we do not live in the 3D realm of AH and cannot touch, feel or smell the environment the time it takes to learn how to determine distances based only on visual cues would be determined by the amount of time a person spent training themselves to do so, under normal circumstances. The process of training oneself to determine approximate distances without visual cues or actual depth perception in AH is not convenient nor easy while trying to fly a cartoon airplane...you have to use zoom in varying degrees, turn the icons on/off repeatedly, and memorize what you see from every angle available.

Since AH is a 3 dimensional simulated environment and there are limitations and real life depth perception does not exist...determining altitude over a flat surface where few if any vertical structures exist such as water is nearly impossible...and since objects are rendered in pixels there are obvious limitations as to how far away an object gets rendered with enough detail to determine anything more than dark dots...but we can learn to determine approximate distances within the limitations of the 3D environment by memorizing and associating.

[boomerlu]

However if depth perception were not emulated in some way in AH

Where you go wrong is your wording of "depth perception" and your useage gets very confusing. Depth perception is not AT ALL modeled or emulated in any way in AH if the player in question is only using a standard monitor.

Depth on the other hand is. Distance is then estimated by the players through experience, range icons, and size references. It is not depth perception and it is misleading to imply that it is in any way. Again, it's only distance estimation based on references. While it can be learned and used in AH, true depth perception would be vastly more useful given the levels of object detail available plus the variability of zoom levels.

but AH is a 3 dimensional environment and as such depth has to be simulated in order to achieve that...for those harping on stereoscopic vision, try looking up stereoscopy or stereoscopic imaging.

Now you've jumped back to wording the concept we're all talking about as "depth". In this sentence you've got it right and if you had used this consistently all along, I would not have had to argue at all.

Also, I have no idea why you're telling us to look up stereoscopic imaging. All references point us back to precisely the issue I was trying to clarify in the first place. When you do have two images captured at slightly offset sources, you can truly simulate depth (i.e., VR headset, stereo glasses, those newspaper puzzles that you stare at, etc). AH does support this, but again the vast majority of us do not have such equipment to take advantage of it.

Since we've been talking about the majority of people (and Del has made clear he would only support something like no enemy icons if such equipment were widely and cheaply available), your continually telling us to go clear up our conceptions about stereo imaging just makes me think you have no clue what you're talking about. Your line of argument seems to suggest that we can somhow get stereoscopic vision on a monitor screen without 3D equipment like VR, NVidia goggles, etc.

[Vulcan]

boomerlu let it go, gyrene has been proven incorrect throughout this thread, he's grasping at straws now. Everyone else gets it.

[boomerlu]

boomerlu let it go, gyrene has been proven incorrect throughout this thread, he's grasping at straws now. Everyone else gets it.

Will do. Cya.

[gyrene81]

boomerlu let it go, gyrene has been proven incorrect throughout this thread, he's grasping at straws now. Everyone else gets it.

Yep Vulcan, you're right.

Amazing that as dumb as you want to believe I am that I can train my brain to associate relative distance and depth in a 3D virtual environment on a flat 22 inch LCD monitor and you can't.





Boomerlu, I understand what you're saying...and perhaps my use of the words depth and perception were viewed as mistated...but in AH the "perception" of "depth" is there in an illusory manner as a result of creating a 3 dimensional environment hence my reference to the term stereoscopy...in order for objects to appear to be 3 dimensional, the illusion of depth must be created...take for example the hangars, they are 3 dimensional modelled objects with height and depth until you get very close to a wall then without the aide of actual binocular vision they become 2 dimensional...same goes for other inanimate objects in AH including the ground and water. In regards to the illusion of depth and determination of approximate distances without actual binocular vision and the 3D environment to support it, that is possible but it's a learned function...as you stated.

What you would have if you only looked out of one eye is an ILLUSION of depth from your years of experience estimating the sizes of objects (i.e., a car isn't 1 mile wide) and your familiarity with objects and distances and some added information from movement (i.e., you can somewhat make up for having only one eye by moving around and viewing the same object from different angles). In this way, you can say that a car is about 100 yards away because a car is about 10m long and its proportionally the correct size based on intuition. This is what you have in Aces High without a VR headset or something like NVidia's stereo goggles.

[Agent360]

Interesting thread.

Although AH is a 3 dimensional world it is displayed on a TWO dimensional screen. The "illusion" of 3d objects comes from "perspective"

Each frame rendered to create the movement is rendered on a flat surface....the exact same thing as taking a photograph. When you transfer a 3 dimensional object to a 2 dimensional surface you have to introduce "perspective" to it or else it looks flat.

Therefor we have to talk about the "vanishing point". Without one there is no perspective.

A great example of this in AH is the complaint on many threads about planes "magically reversing tail to nose" and coming down and shooting them. The reason this happens is because when pointed up at the sky there IS NO VANISHING POINT....therefore this is no perspctive and you cant tell what direction the plane is actually traveling.

This is a 2 dimensional game we play. Any other argument is flawed.

The only reason it works is because we have perspective.

[boomerlu]

Boomerlu, I understand what you're saying...and perhaps my use of the words depth and perception were viewed as mistated...but in AH the "perception" of "depth" is there in an illusory manner as a result of creating a 3 dimensional environment hence my reference to the term stereoscopy...

This is actually the part of what you've mentioned that is most misleading; you've got the meaning of stereoscopy all wrong.

Stereoscopy actually refers to something like VR goggles or NVidia stereo goggles (an imaging technique to trick your brain into "seeing" true 3D), NOT perspective as Agent mentions in his next post. Stereoscopy cannot be accomplished without two image sources and a way to feed each one into its respective eye.

What we have in AH is not stereoscopy, it's a simulation of a 3D world represented on a 2D monitor, which should give a number of depth cues beyond stereopsis. In fact... this article lists them...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereoscopy

The key quote is...

"All the above cues, with the exception of the first two, are present in traditional two-dimensional images such as paintings, photographs, and television. Stereoscopy is the enhancement of the illusion of depth in a photograph, movie, or other two-dimensional image by presenting a slightly different image to each eye, and thereby adding the first of these cues (stereopsis) as well."

Notably, the bolded part refers to exactly what VR/NVidia goggles do.

Edit: after going through all the relevant info, both sides had misleading wording. To be proper, AH has cues which support depth perception. Notably it does not employ stereoscopy or support stereopsis in any way.

[gyrene81]

Edit: after going through all the relevant info, both sides had misleading wording. To be proper, AH has cues which support depth perception. Notably it does not employ stereoscopy or support stereopsis in any way.

Exactly, which though I misused the terminology in context, is what I have said all along...and I'll make sure to note the proper useage of the terms. Thank you Boomerlu.