No Enemy Icons, The new standard

[boomerlu]

My opinion on the whole no enemy icons thing is that it could work in an FSO type setting, putting more emphasis on teamwork to locate/identify/destroy targets. I would definitely favor that as I have full faith in my squad.

However, such a thing would definitely give a big advantage to those with bigger screens and/or VR/stereo equipment. This is IMO the biggest minus to the idea in an FSO setting (don't even mention MA, where you can't IFF based on plane type), but I think the extra immersion would outweigh this detraction.

And while it's true that you could make the same argument that some guys don't have TrackIR (I don't), rudder pedals (I don't), HOTAS setups (I don't), or even joysticks, I feel it's more fundamental and also more expensive to get better graphics compared to better controls. A decent twisty stick costs what? Fifty bucks or so? Personally I put my mouse in my left hand and use the scroll wheel as a throttle and the X-Y mouse axes for mouse-look. It's close enough to HOTAS + TrackIR enough for me at this stage (although I'd still prefer to have a rudder set) and pretty cheap to boot! Total cost... $50 ish for a stick, $20 for a scroll mouse (which you probably already have).

Compare that to a VR set or a big screen monitor... that could run anywhere from $200 up to several thousand. These two things (monitor/VR vs joystick) are not in the same league.

Edit: and keep friendly icons. In real life, pilots would have unique paint jobs to be able to identify within the squad... and since you are around the same guys all the time, you'd learn to pick out the who's who. As is, we tend to keep one squad dressed out in the same skin.

[Agent360]

<<snip>>
Stereoscopy actually refers to something like VR goggles or NVidia stereo goggles (an imaging technique to trick your brain into "seeing" true 3D), NOT perspective as Agent mentions in his next post. Stereoscopy cannot be accomplished without two image sources and a way to feed each one into its respective eye.
<<snip>>

I was not speaking about "Stereoscopy".

[boomerlu]

I was not speaking about "Stereoscopy".

I wasn't implying that you were. I was using what you said as a contrast to what I was saying.

[Kirin]

Oh and for the noobs that think stereopsis is good for 10m:

TABLE 1.  Maximum distance of stereopsis for different stereoacuity thresholds (PD = 64)
Threshold (arc seconds)  Radians Maximum distance (m)
2  9.696 x 106 6600
10  4.848 x 105  1320
20  9.696 x 105  660
40  1.939 x 104  330
80  3.879 x 104  165
 
The average person has ~ 30 arc seconds of stereoacuity.

So typically people will expeirnce stereopsis good to at least 300m, maybe up to 600m.

Vulcan - could you state source please...  What does 'PD=64' mean?

[Vulcan]

Vulcan - could you state source please...  What does 'PD=64' mean?

Ahh was an vision lecture I found ages ago, I believe PD means IPD in millimeters (and if you don't know what IPD is.... ). Ahh here you go: http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~salmonto/vs3_materials/Lecture14.pdf

I know a lot about the subject because I suffer from non-binocular vision (or did). As a kid I had an ailment in my right eye (rolled up due to a severed nerve) that mean't my vision developed initially with a single eye, thus non-binocular. I only found out when I went for Air Force entrance exams. And I can tell you that you will struggle to get a civilians pilots license without binocular vision.

The interesting thing is that in the VR headsets I do get depth, I first noticed this on my VFX-1 (take note gyrene, I've been using SS 3D VR headsets in PC gaming for around 15 years ) . I believe it has something to do with the isolated view of each screen. The VR use has had a secondary function for in correcting this aspect of my vision. I am still left eye dominant, and if you search the BBS you'll find me asking up 3D gunsight issues (as in real life the gunsight in AH doesn't work for me in SS 3D, as the left eye dominates and it is offset).

So I know a lot of this stuff from experience, not googling (as is the limits of gyrenes knowledge).

In the absence of stereopsis the brain needs to use other 3D depth cues with the best definition available (to make up). Given the limits of the game, and current 3D graphics technology this is simply not possible. At no time does a person playing AH on non-SS3D hardware perceive the game as true 3D.

[Kirin]

Aye - good lecture there! Got the PD...   

As far as the usable distance for stereopsis I stand corrected for the moment. So, 700m under laboratory conditions - closer to 200m under RL conditions. I still put forward my toyplane argument though...

Will investigate further!

---

I remember the VFX1 headset - I soooo wanted it - but the resolution was crappy (even at that time) and it cost more than my whole PC setup... . I played Descent on it in a shop once.

[gyrene81]

Ahh was an vision lecture I found ages ago, I believe PD means IPD in millimeters (and if you don't know what IPD is.... ). Ahh here you go: http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~salmonto/vs3_materials/Lecture14.pdf

I know a lot about the subject because I suffer from non-binocular vision (or did). As a kid I had an ailment in my right eye (rolled up due to a severed nerve) that mean't my vision developed initially with a single eye, thus non-binocular. I only found out when I went for Air Force entrance exams. And I can tell you that you will struggle to get a civilians pilots license without binocular vision.

The interesting thing is that in the VR headsets I do get depth, I first noticed this on my VFX-1 (take note gyrene, I've been using SS 3D VR headsets in PC gaming for around 15 years ) . I believe it has something to do with the isolated view of each screen. The VR use has had a secondary function for in correcting this aspect of my vision. I am still left eye dominant, and if you search the BBS you'll find me asking up 3D gunsight issues (as in real life the gunsight in AH doesn't work for me in SS 3D, as the left eye dominates and it is offset).

So I know a lot of this stuff from experience, not googling (as is the limits of gyrenes knowledge).

In the absence of stereopsis the brain needs to use other 3D depth cues with the best definition available (to make up). Given the limits of the game, and current 3D graphics technology this is simply not possible. At no time does a person playing AH on non-SS3D hardware perceive the game as true 3D.

Nice jabs there Vulcan...good try...the extents of my knowledge would surprise you...try addressing the full content and context of what I've said in response to your rantings.

I understand now why you think depth doesn't exist in AH without the use of VR equipment...it's the way your vision developed and what your brain is used to...after using VR equipment for so long and getting your brain used to the view, a military grade simulator wouldn't look 3 dimensional to you.

Now, in spite of your opinion, some people have little trouble seeing a 3D environment in AH...it's what they are used to looking at on their flat screens...it's all about perspective...so full "stereoscopic depth perception" does not exist as it does in the real world, but a reasonable facsimile exists in the form of basic visual cues in most of the environment...so there are limitations as to how far in the distance a person can see objects based on graphics settings within AH and hardware/software limitations...but, within the parameters allowed by the hardware/software it is possible to train ones brain to determine approximate distances since most people have the ability to memorize repetitive visual input without VR equipment or "stereoscopic vision"...it's not easy, but it can be done, as a good number of people have found out in the AvA arena over the past couple of days.



I'm sorry you can't see things outside of your small world...some of us don't have that limitation.

[captain1ma]

i think they should leave icons on, for those of us who like icons. icons can be shut off manually, so if you dont want em, shut em off. make it an individual choice. i like minimal range icons, but not NO icons.

i retract this statement. Icons are OFF in the AVA and its a blast! you just die alot 

[PJ_Godzilla]

i retract this statement. Icons are OFF in the AVA and its a blast! you just die alot 

No Icons = more realism.

It may have come up already but I've always felt the Icon disadvantages the BnZ style by which most kills occur in RL. It also disadvantages escapes, in general, since you're now flying around with a big "hit me" sign.

Get rid of this pestilence known as the icon!

[Boxboy]

It's simple turn off Icons and see who shows up   I know I won't along with a few others, but we may be in the minority .  I came to FSO because I liked it, when i don't like it I will leave, simple really   I really loved the comment about old guys tho, guess some of you don't plan on living much longer 

BigJim

[Peyton]

I play on a 9 inch color handheld tv monitor...please leave icons on.

[ROC]

You kids are all trying way too hard to force things on people.

If "you" want immersion, turn your own icons off, just don't tell me I have to like it.
I'm sure it's fun to experiment with, and try out, but some people just are not technologically or physically able to run with it.  
Just consider that you already have the opportunity to enjoy the game at the level you want, but are arguing to limit it for others.

Just sayin.

[CptA]

Well said ROC!

Now, back to the sheep...

CptA

[captain1ma]

i wouldnt suggest it in the FSO, too many varied players for that, but in the AVA its working out great. if you want NO ENEMY ICONS go to the AVA and try it out.

as for the FSO, leave it be. just my 2 cents

[gusman]

i wouldnt suggest it in the FSO, too many varied players for that, but in the AVA its working out great. if you want NO ENEMY ICONS go to the AVA and try it out.

as for the FSO, leave it be. just my 2 cents

Are Friendly icons on? If they're not is Killshooter off? 

Cheers,
gus