New arena-No icons- axis v allies rotating balance Plane sets No F3

[Nr_RaVeN]

You don't know what you are talking about.  The range at which things are identifiable in AH are far shorter than they are in reality.  The range at which, for example, you can read the letter codes on a fighter are far shorter in AH than they are in reality.  In fact, they are so much shorter than a person with such limited vision would be denied their drivers license because they would be unable to read road signs in time to act on them at highway speeds.

Yea and that's how it is in other sims too but it isn't a problem just a learning curve thing. my monitor is not big I can do it just fine. Its a question of spotting the movement then sneaking in tactically an when close enough to id the AC type you set up for the shot knowing your convergence range by the wing tip to wing tip of the enemy aircraft in your gun site as im sure you know thats what those lines are on it for.  Depending on your gun site lets say your lining up a FW 190 if its wing tip to wing tip in your gun sitethen again depending on your gun site, its between 200- 250 out from you if your convergence is set at 250 blast away. All this stuff comes into play with no icons its in tight down and dirty.

Lots of missunderstanding arise from lack of actual experience..Lots of pepole think WWI planes are boring because they fly slow (yet have never flown WWI sims) any that have know that those SLOW aircraft give the fastest most exiting turn n burn  E management dogfights there are.

With No Icons your hunting not picking and fishing in a barell.

 After some practice you can tell by the silhouette from 1k out. Just because your not up to the challenge is no reason to bash someone that is.
 It would be a set up only for those that choose to fly in it if you cant hang in there don't use it  no need to get so defensive or up set just don't fly it.

It would be an arena for a guys that were into that style that's all. Its not for everyone. Obviously you you have never flown no icon multilayer dog fight sims if you have you would understand. No offence intended. To each there own.

 You don't need a large screen, you look for movement, you constantly check your six and you fly with a wing man in formation who covers your blind spots wile you cover his..the reason for formation flying anyway.

lets not criticize what we have not had and first hand experience with. It was just a wish for those that want to do it.
I understand the masses like the easy road but some like the extra challenge and excitement that a server set up like this would offer.

let me say this as well, its not like flying no icons makes one guy a better sim pilot than another, its just a preference thing. Kind of like bait fishing V.S. Fly fishing.
We all can bait fish. But to tie your own fly  set up your casting line read the water and then land A nice fish on a flyrod well its just way more fulfilling IMO
 

[gyrene81]

With No Icons your hunting not picking and fishing in a barell.

It would be an arena for a guys that were into that style that's all. Its not for everyone. Obviously you you have never flown no icon multilayer dog fight sims if you have you would understand. No offence intended. To each there own.

That leaves about 10 hardcore and 40 part timers...the other 400+ prefer arcade only...that's one reason you see the AvA arena mostly empty...there are threads around where people blame a particular group of people for the lack of people in the AvA when the reality is most only want to fly their super ponyspittempjughog 24/7 then complain about how boring the game is.



Raven, in case you haven't already, watch for the combat challenge events in the FSO forum...the first one was a blast.

[Motherland]

You don't know what you are talking about.  The range at which things are identifiable in AH are far shorter than they are in reality.  The range at which, for example, you can read the letter codes on a fighter are far shorter in AH than they are in reality.  In fact, they are so much shorter than a person with such limited vision would be denied their drivers license because they would be unable to read road signs in time to act on them at highway speeds.

I live next to Harrisburg International Airport and see aircraft of all shapes and sizes fly over me at low altitude constantly. While it's true that it's a little easier to read markings (which don't really matter any way in Aces High...) in real life than what I've experienced in game I have no more problem discerning silhouettes and through that means identifying aircraft in Aces High than I would if I walked out my door and looked a passenger jet flying a couple of thousand feet above my head.

[Karnak]

I live next to Harrisburg International Airport and see aircraft of all shapes and sizes fly over me at low altitude constantly. While it's true that it's a little easier to read markings (which don't really matter any way in Aces High...) in real life than what I've experienced in game I have no more problem discerning silhouettes and through that means identifying aircraft in Aces High than I would if I walked out my door and looked a passenger jet flying a couple of thousand feet above my head.

The markings aren't the only thing that is easier in reality.  An aircraft's heading and attitude can be discerned at much greater range in reality than they can be in the game.

In addition, what a player on a 1920x1200 28" screen can identify and what a player on a 1024x768 17" screen can identify are very different things.

[Motherland]

Heading (other than toward you/ away from you) and attitude can't be discerned from icons in the first place... You need to use the actual plane for certain things in game no matter what the icon settings are in game...

[cactuskooler]

<-- Enjoys no icon and limited icon events. I believe it adds more realism than it subtracts in axis vs allies type of scenarios.

Yes no icons is unrealistically difficult to make out aircraft type, distance away, etc; but icons on has it's own unrealistic qualities also. Lose sight? No problem, just throw your head around till the neon sign tells you where the bandit is. Or if your flying 10kft over an enemy camouflaged with the ground, he doesn't stand a chance at staying concealed.

They both have compromises and neither is right or wrong. Understandably, most wouldn't want to spend much time, if any, in a no icon environment. However there are others who enjoy doing just that.

[gyrene81]

Not to mention it rewards the guy with the bigger monitor, and it absolutely caters to the guy with more than 1 monitor. I don't consider those individuals wanting the lack of icons any different than the people telling Hitech that the lack of minute engine control made his game worthless.

I've been very vocal about the 'no icon' events, I refuse to take part until quality VR headsets become the standard in PC gaming. When that happens, sign me up.

You and I both know that is not totally true Delirium...I notice that "trainers corps" tag under your handle...if you're not willing to try something more challenging than the base arcade settings, are you sure you should be training other people? Not to say that people shouldn't start with the basics but, for people who have been around longer and come to you for more advanced training I would think pushing them with greater challenges would be more helpful to them than the basic arcade settings. You don't think the player with the full stick/throttle/rudder has an advantage over the simple twisty stick? Don't you think a person who has a $2000+ computer with the best video card money can buy has an advantage over a guy using a 4 yr old computer that has to turn all the eye candy and distance rendering down? A VR headset isn't going to give you any better distance vision than a 22 inch LCD monitor sitting on your desk unless the game has been fully programmed to 3D VR and you have the hardware to support it.

The textures are going to be rendered at whatever level the player sets in the games video settings...the pixels are going to be rendered at whatever density the player sets in the games video settings for resolution...the only people who could possibly experience even a small disadvantage are those silly enough to play on a 15 or 17 inch widescreen laptop...and I hope no one is dumb enough to be playing on a desktop with a 15 or 17 inch widescreen...

One small limitation is that this game renders distant objects in their simplest forms...pixels...the game has the capacity to render objects at 4 miles with more detail than black pixels, but there aren't many of us who can run the full 4 mile setting without drops in frame rates...so we don't have the in game capacity to see as much detail at long distances...but then the icons don't show beyond 6000 yards (18,000 feet) anyway...in special events the icon rendering distance for enemies can be as low as 1000 yards...and I know that even with the lowest of in game graphics settings and enemy icons turned off, it is possible in AH to determine plane type out to 3000 yards (15,000 feet) on a 17 inch LCD monitor.

The only other limitation is our ability to determine distance in the AH environment as easily as we would in real life...not everyone can easily determine distances in real life since it's a matter of perspectives learned through repetition but, in the AH environment it is even more difficult unless you do some things that help your eyes assimilate object detail with distance...I can't speak for anyone else but my optimal shooting distance is 400 yards (1,200 feet)...sometimes I take potshots at longer distances with enemy icons turned on...however, what I have started doing to help myself is turn enemy icons on/off with varying distances and through every view I have set...it's a pain in the butt and makes me an easier target in the MAs but I'm getting more and more accustomed to determining distances without the aid of icons, eventually I will be able to determine approximate distances on enemy targets without any icons because my eyes and brain will have been trained to do so.

You don't know what you are talking about.  The range at which things are identifiable in AH are far shorter than they are in reality.  The range at which, for example, you can read the letter codes on a fighter are far shorter in AH than they are in reality.  In fact, they are so much shorter than a person with such limited vision would be denied their drivers license because they would be unable to read road signs in time to act on them at highway speeds.

You have no idea what you're talking about...I'd really like to know when was the last time you read the letters off the tail section of a 50 foot long airplane that was 3 miles away from you...or even just a mile, 5,280 feet. You must play on a 15 inch laptop.

[Krusty]

Wow... such ignorance spouting the virtues of flying "without icons"....??

You can clearly tell the shape, wing type, engine numbers, tail structure, AND the livery (airline colors) of an airliner flying overhead at 40,000 feet or more.

In AH you don't even get DOTS on planes that far, let alone coherent shapes.

In real life, pilots can see and identify other aircraft up to 10 miles. In AH it's barely possible at 1000 yards.


As for your comment regarding seeing codes and colors being "not important in AH" -- totall bull. How do you tell an enemy aircraft 4 miles out? Perhaps by the color and the sun glinting off of it. The bright white flash of a star-and-bar, or the black cross of a german enemy.

They didn't paint invasion stripes, yellow leading edges, fuselage bands, bright yellow rudders, bright yellow cowlings, and so many other identification markers on planes in WW2 for the fun of it. They did that because you could and would tell who was friend/foe much further out than this game's (or ANY game's) ability can pretend to match.

Anybody saying "no icons" is just as realistic as real life is deluded and ignorant. A dangerous combination, it should never lead to changes in gameplay for those NOT deluded and ignorant.


EDIT: Raven, I don't mean to hijack your request. You have every right to suggest a rotation with this setting. My comments were in response to gyrene, cactus, and motherland's obsession with converting AH to "no icons"...

[Delirium]

You and I both know that is not totally true Delirium...I notice that "trainers corps" tag under your handle...if you're not willing to try something more challenging than the base arcade settings, are you sure you should be training other people?

Nice way to begin the debate, attacking someone like that is hardly a good way to win.

That said, if you don't want icons feel free to turn them off. This game lacks (through current technology, mind you) peripheral vision, lacks a feel for the aircraft you're flying, lacks true 3d viewing of enemy aircraft, and now you want to take away one of the indicators for range? It makes no sense unless you're trying to recreate a 1945 Saburo Sakai with a stye in his last good eye. We are many years away from having enough indicators in the game through true 3D vision or (better yet) physical responses where you can feel the cold on your skin and you can smell the engine/cordite. Here is a great book that really described what the future of flight sim gaming will be like.

http://www.amazon.ca/Net-Force-04-Ultimate-Escape/dp/0425169391

In regards to your initial attack, if you ever want my spot in the Training Corp, let Ghost know.

[gyrene81]

Wow... such ignorance spouting the virtues of flying "without icons"....??

You can clearly tell the shape, wing type, engine numbers, tail structure, AND the livery (airline colors) of an airliner flying overhead at 40,000 feet or more.

In AH you don't even get DOTS on planes that far, let alone coherent shapes.

In real life, pilots can see and identify other aircraft up to 10 miles. In AH it's barely possible at 1000 yards.


As for your comment regarding seeing codes and colors being "not important in AH" -- totall bull. How do you tell an enemy aircraft 4 miles out? Perhaps by the color and the sun glinting off of it. The bright white flash of a star-and-bar, or the black cross of a german enemy.

They didn't paint invasion stripes, yellow leading edges, fuselage bands, bright yellow rudders, bright yellow cowlings, and so many other identification markers on planes in WW2 for the fun of it. They did that because you could and would tell who was friend/foe much further out than this game's (or ANY game's) ability can pretend to match.

Anybody saying "no icons" is just as realistic as real life is deluded and ignorant. A dangerous combination, it should never lead to changes in gameplay for those NOT deluded and ignorant.


EDIT: Raven, I don't mean to hijack your request. You have every right to suggest a rotation with this setting. My comments were in response to gyrene, cactus, and motherland's obsession with converting AH to "no icons"...

You are so full of BS I don't even know where to begin. You're second sentence is absolute BS because at 40,000 feet that jumbo jet is just a small silver object with a big contrail...and if you can see even the paint job on an object 40,000 feet away without a telescope or binoculars, you should be able to clearly read a 7 digit license plate on a car from a mile away...even with perfect vision, that is not physically possible.

If you had any idea what you were talking about, someone might take you seriously.

[WMGambit]

No icons would not make ACM more 'effective or realistic'.

We also already have an arena like the one you're asking for...it even has the same name of the arena you're asking for.  The only difference is the existing AvA has a short range icon.  Why not suggest a week setup with icons turned off?


ack-ack

                     

[gyrene81]

Nice way to begin the debate, attacking someone like that is hardly a good way to win.

That said, if you don't want icons feel free to turn them off. This game lacks (through current technology, mind you) peripheral vision, lacks a feel for the aircraft you're flying, lacks true 3d viewing of enemy aircraft, and now you want to take away one of the indicators for range? It makes no sense unless you're trying to recreate a 1945 Saburo Sakai with a stye in his last good eye. We are many years away from having enough indicators in the game through true 3D vision or (better yet) physical responses where you can feel the cold on your skin and you can smell the engine/cordite. Here is a great book that really described what the future of flight sim gaming will be like.

http://www.amazon.ca/Net-Force-04-Ultimate-Escape/dp/0425169391

In regards to your initial attack, if you ever want my spot in the Training Corp, let Ghost know.

Hardly a personal attack Delirium...just a question...if you place yourself in a position above others in any manner where you are a point of reference, guidance or simple counsel, your standards become theirs and your public announcements of your opinion become the opinions of others who may look to you...if you as a higher than average member are not willing to do something the less than average members are willing to do...then, well you get where I'm going with this.


I agree there are some limitations within the game...full peripheral vision is limited to a smaller area than real life but like everything else in AH, learning how to utilize what's available can be done...the 3D viewing of other aircraft is also limited but it is close depending on the distance and it can be enhanced with the use of the built in vision enhancing tools...again, it's all based on perspective, if you choose to limit yourself to looking at nothing but the limitations then that is all you will see...I happen to see only a few limitations that cannot be overcome and they don't have anything to do with turning enemy icons off.

[Shifty]

That leaves about 10 hardcore and 40 part timers...the other 400+ prefer arcade only...that's one reason you see the AvA arena mostly empty...there are threads around where people blame a particular group of people for the lack of people in the AvA when the reality is most only want to fly their super ponyspittempjughog 24/7 then complain about how boring the game is.



Raven, in case you haven't already, watch for the combat challenge events in the FSO forum...the first one was a blast.

I understand this is your opinion and I hope you'll understand that you're basing your opinion on an assumption more than actual knowledge of why the AVA is always empty. There's quite a few people flying in the LWA now that never flew anywhere but the CT or AVA for years in fact back to 2001 and before. A few years ago you couldn't drag me or many of these other guys into the Main Arenas. Flying my super ponyspittempjughog 24/7 has nothing to do with it. In fact most of my squadmates fly 1942/43 era birds. Plus there's just as many taterlaunchingHO190uberjetjoc ks flying Luftwaffe birds in the LWA as people flying else .

 My experience was..The arena ceased to be fun for the majority of what once was a fairly healthy community mainly do to behavior more than aircraft preference. As more left and fewer flew the process fed itself and the place died on the vine. In my opinion it could be saved with the right ideas and little positive sponsoring. The OP would be well advised to run his idea by some of the folks on the AVA staff along with guys with similar preferences as yourself. I for one would like to see the AVA make a comeback and there are a few folks trying to do just that. Insulting the people that don't regularly fly there or see things your way on the subject of reality isn't going to help build you much positive feedback on your efforts. Also your theory of the AHII community doesn't explain the popularity of Special Events where you are forced to fly a designated bird instead of your favorite. There is interest for realism and historic setups and settings regardless of how empty the AVA is at the moment.

 I really don't have a dog in the icon debate, but I have to disagree with your statement on why the AVA is empty. It has less to do with people refusing to fly less than their favorite aircraft and more to do with the place needing a formula for fun again after it became such a disappointment for so many of it's longtime supporters. I'd like to see of you guys that seem to have a lot of energy for the sim like yourself and the OP to get with the AVA staff and run some of this stuff by them. I think you'll find most of them very accommodating to new ideas.
<S>

[FLS]

IIRC normal vision is modeled in AH when you are zoomed in all the way. When you are zoomed out all the way,at 145 degree view angle, you have slightly more than normal field of view for binocular vision. Peripheral field of view goes further.

So to see normal detail you need to be fully zoomed in and if you try flying like that you'll see that the resulting narrow field of view is a problem. If you try quickly switching zoom  off and full on you'll find it's very easy to miss the object you want to see. In real life you have the AH fully zoomed in view and more than the fully zoomed out view at the same time.  Icons make up for that. They don't reduce realism, they increase it.

[Nr_RaVeN]

Wow... such ignorance spouting the virtues of flying "without icons"....??
EDIT: Raven, I don't mean to hijack your request. You have every right to suggest a rotation with this setting. My comments were in response to gyrene, cactus, and motherland's obsession with converting AH to "no icons"...

No worries. Thanks for saying so. I didn't realise this was an ongoing issue in AH. I was just wishing for an arena that players could choose to fly in if they wanted.It wasn't my intention to convert the sim as a whole.

This is the only sim that I fly that uses icons in all servers.
 ll the other simis I fly have servers that allow arcade settings like in AH. but still offer No icons servers.

 its up to the player were and what style they want to fly in.
The No icon servers are very very populated and generally the better more historically accurate servers.I see far better wingman tactic's and far better use of brevity code ect. in them

The Icon servers are what I call air quake servers, kill stealing shoulershooting silly servers, total immersion killers.

Fortunately in AH the Radio helps allot with com unication as all in rage can communicate, and most decent sticks will ask if your ok or need help insted of flying in to pick your hard work once your have managed to Finlay suck the E out of your opponent.

   There are many that simply don't use correct wing man tactics and have the air quake mentality as they can spot there pick from 5k out. zoom in with out covering your six steal a kill and leave your Buttt hanging in the wind, in order to get their kills and see their name in lights.

If any reads my last post in this thread A bit closer it will answere many questions about judging distance ext and how truly possible and enjoying No icons can be.

I fly AH with only friendly icons on and enemy off.
 All be it I'm still scraping the rust off from a 4 year absence from the sim. I do just fine locating targets. Its about tracking movement. Theres a reason I use a hawks eye for my avatar.

 
Again in this sim/game the AC 's DOT can be spotted from a long way off without icons.

 its not till I get 900 to 1000k can I tell what AC type it is........... in an axis v allies set up, that's all one needs to  decide if its a Friend or foe.

 Really its not such a scary thing ,lets face it we fly a cartoon that uses vectors ect. nothing is real about it.  

Without icons in a axis v Allies setting the excitement level of the hunt or the suprise from a bounce gets us a bit closer to what the pilot my have experienced.

 W/O icons your not getting as many six calls or seeing picking opportunity's fro 5 k out.

if under attack or out numbered, possibly you can manage a split s out of there and disappear onto the deck.

This isn't about reality its about excitement and again until it is experience and a player tries it for a week or so its very difficult to explain to pepole.

Sorry if i created a big stir... It was just a wish for one more arena choice that a group could frequent on a regular basis.

I thought for such a long standing quality sim there would be many who would like the idea as I see so many good sticks around this comunity.
Don't get me wrong I think AH is a great sim I was just looking for one more server CHOICE Not trying to convert the entire place.
~S~