Author Topic: WWI Gunsights  (Read 1269 times)

Offline Mace2004

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WWI Gunsights
« on: March 12, 2010, 11:26:19 AM »
There are interesting discrepancies for all the gunsights.  Guns without telescopic or some sort of reflector sight had sights mounted on both the receiver and muzzle (or in a corresponding position on the cowling).  The "sight" (sometimes called an "iron sight") is actually made up of both of these references.  Either reference by itself is useless and the shooter must line each up to properly aim the gun.  Without a reference on both ends of the gun, iron sights are worthless and neither the F.1 or F.2b have both fore and aft references so, if you move your head away from the default forward view position the sights don't work.  Looking on line, I've seen pictures in which the Camel has a post on the receiver and ring on the muzzle (both on the left gun) or a tube sight on the centerline but ours just has a center mounted ring.  I can't find a good picture of the Bristol but one I found appears to have both a forward ring sight and post hanging down from the rear of the upper wing.  The observer's Lewis gun has a good set of iron sights, strange there are none for the Allied pilots.

Both German planes at least appear more accurate because they have iron sights on each gun but the D.VII is the only plane in the set that actually has an in-game usable iron sight (the large one in the center) with front and rear references.  This sight and the iron sights on the Lewis gun are the only ones that actually work when you line them up. The iron sights actually on the guns themselves though doesn't work because they don't line up correctly and you'll miss low if you use them (I'm sure this has something to do with the graphics modeling).

Provided you do not move your default forward head position the ring sights (and crossed brace wires on the DR1) on all the planes work fine but you'll lose this as soon as you move your default head position in either up/down or side/side directions.  If you use Track IR as I do, the only iron sights that work are the D.VII and F2b's Lewis gun.

So what's this mean?  If you use the normal AH view system, don't move your default forward view side/side or up/down if you want an accurate sight (you can move it closer or further back).  If you use TIR then it gets more complicated and you have to force the forward view.  You can do this by pausing TIR or do what I do.  I have an X52 with a two stage trigger.  The first stage is set to select forward view (keypad 8) which forces the view to line up with the aircraft axis, the second stage fires the guns.  You can then line up the iron sights on the D.VII and Lewis gun but it won't work with the other sights.  The only way to make this work well with the other airplanes is to put a reference dot in the center of your monitor and that becomes your sight.  You can also use the dot if you really need to change your default forward view head position in the normal AH view system.  Of course, you can't beat filling your windscreen with an enemy aircraft before pulling the trigger, that way you can't miss.  This may be one of the reasons there seem to be so many collisions in the WWI arenas (well, that plus all the wings blocking your views).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 11:31:34 AM by Mace2004 »
Mace
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 11:27:53 AM »
delete accidental double post
Mace
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Offline FLS

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2010, 01:12:09 PM »
The F2b has a thingy on the cowl that you can align with the ring sight post.  The F1 has the crossed wires that line up with the ring sight. I use TIR and I haven't had a problem.

Offline Lusche

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2010, 01:38:16 PM »
 I have an X52 with a two stage trigger.  The first stage is set to select forward view (keypad 8) which forces the view to line up with the aircraft axis, the second stage fires the guns.

I have done the same. Unfortunately while it indeed forces the forward view, my head is still moving up and down, left and right.Dis- & enabling TIR in top of that is not quick enough, so for now I have better results with TIR completely on, no forced forward view all the time.
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2010, 01:47:16 PM »
The F2b has a thingy on the cowl that you can align with the ring sight post.  The F1 has the crossed wires that line up with the ring sight. I use TIR and I haven't had a problem.
Yes, you could align these in the vertical and it'll give you an approximate aximuth but very incorrect elevation.  With the F1 you'd be shooting way high and you'd be shooting low with the F2b using those references.  Of course, you could memorize where the sight is relative to these other references when you're head's at the default position.  You'd then need to make sure you've lined them up and then put the target in the center of the ringsight but seems rather workload intensive.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2010, 03:22:38 PM »
I've replaced my cursor with the dot'o"deth gunsite which I've used as a sight in osti's.

 While experimenting with the .target command,checking convergence or lack of since it's not adjustable,I found it to work quite well without any issues with head position up,down or otherwise.

 Mace you may want to give something along this idea and see if that helps with TiR!

   :salute

Offline FLS

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2010, 04:48:57 PM »
Yes, you could align these in the vertical and it'll give you an approximate aximuth but very incorrect elevation.  With the F1 you'd be shooting way high and you'd be shooting low with the F2b using those references.  Of course, you could memorize where the sight is relative to these other references when you're head's at the default position.  You'd then need to make sure you've lined them up and then put the target in the center of the ringsight but seems rather workload intensive.

It becomes automatic to have your head in position to shoot if you put in a little deadband for the centered TIR position. Then you don't have to think about alignment, you just notice that you're in position when the view settles from the deadband.

For elevation you could use the target command and adjust your head position to center the ring sight for your convergence range. I wouldn't bother though since you're usually pulling lead anyway, all you need is a fixed reference point and you learn where to place it.

Offline Urchin

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2010, 03:21:57 PM »
Yes, you could align these in the vertical and it'll give you an approximate aximuth but very incorrect elevation.  With the F1 you'd be shooting way high and you'd be shooting low with the F2b using those references.  Of course, you could memorize where the sight is relative to these other references when you're head's at the default position.  You'd then need to make sure you've lined them up and then put the target in the center of the ringsight but seems rather workload intensive.

Mace -

I believe that all 4 planes have usable sights, but I haven't really played with the D.VII.  I use trackIR, and I keep the gunsight "centered" by using the mouse pointer.

 The F2B front sight is aligned by putting the front piece of metal (the little squarish piece) on the middle of the bottom of the inside ring.  If you place your mouse pointer there at the beginning of the sortie (its the default head position) you can do whatever you want with your head position and the mouse pointer is your new sight.

  The DR1 MGs are sighted by lining the post on the back of the gun with the sight.  The sight is aligned when the notch in the post is aligned with the center of the sight and the top of the post is aligned with the base of the gunsight in front. Again, put the mouse pointer there and you are set.  It is harder to do this one than the F2B though. 

I forgot the camels sight.. but the plane sucks anyway. 


Offline Motherland

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2010, 03:32:21 PM »
  The DR1 MGs are sighted by lining the post on the back of the gun with the sight.  The sight is aligned when the notch in the post is aligned with the center of the sight and the top of the post is aligned with the base of the gunsight in front. Again, put the mouse pointer there and you are set.  It is harder to do this one than the F2B though. 
The iron sights on the Spandaus on both the D.VII and the Dr.1 are something like 25'-50' low at 200 yards. This was the first thing I tried when I noticed that they were there and that there was nothing to line up with the crossed wires on the Dr.1.

The sight on the Camel you can line up with the crossed wires, however not in a way that is intuitive; the when the inner ring is just barely touching (not literally of course but in your view) the two crossing wires, the sight is centered and will shoot true, more or less. I actually find this sight better to use than the one on the D.VII because I have a tendency to lose the rear sight in the post for the front sight, since they look exactly the same.

The F2.B looks to have very very low profile sights on top of the cowling, however they are obscured by the ringed post and difficult to use.


Does anyone know what sighting systems were actually used on these aircraft?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 03:34:45 PM by Motherland »

Offline kingcobradude

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2010, 04:11:23 PM »
how do I set up 2 stage in AH
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2010, 01:27:29 PM »
how do I set up 2 stage in AH
I do it in Saitek's SST software.  In the SST profiler assign keypad 8 to "Trigger" which is the first detent.  The second trigger detent is "Second Trigger" so assign the N key to it.  You can do the same in the AH profiler if you don't use SST.  Assign kp8 to the profiler button 0 position for first trigger and assign the N key to button 14 for the second trigger.
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Offline SlapShot

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2010, 02:14:18 PM »
I've replaced my cursor with the dot'o"deth gunsite which I've used as a sight in osti's.

How did you do this ?
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Offline morfiend

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2010, 06:05:35 PM »
How did you do this ?

 You just rename the existing cursor,I use cursor1 then replace the "cursor bmp" with any suitable bmp then rename that to cursor.

 

Offline SlapShot

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2010, 08:08:58 AM »
You just rename the existing cursor,I use cursor1 then replace the "cursor bmp" with any suitable bmp then rename that to cursor.

 

Thank you ... :rock
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Offline morfiend

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Re: WWI Gunsights
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2010, 07:27:19 PM »


   :salute