Allied perk planes

[coyote]

Since I will be comming back to this sim when I get my HOTAS 2000, I wanted to add my 2 cents on additional aircraft.

I would really like to see a P-47M or N. Obviously these would be perk planes in nearly the same class as the Me-262.

Also, Did the Fw-190D-11 ever see combat? That plane looks wicked, but I heard a very small number were ever built--less than 10?

Again, my research is weak at best.

[GRUNHERZ]

At least "several dozen" various Fw190 D11,12,13 were deliverd JG26 in early 45, what that exatly means I have no idea. IIRC this info is from some Caldwell book.

[flakbait]

Here's what Mr Baugher has on the D-series Fw-190 D series

And quote from that page, for the lazy:

 

The Fw 190D-10 was an experimental version of the D-9 with an engine-mounted MK 108 cannon and two MG 151 cannon in the wing roots. Only two of these were built.

The Fw 190D-11 was powered by the Jumo 213F with MW 50 boost. The fuselage-mounted guns were eliminated, and there were two MG 151s in the wing roots and two MK 108s in the outer wings. Only seven prototypes were built.

The Fw 190D-12 was a fighter-bomber variant, which differed from the D-9 by having a three-stage supercharged Jumo 213F-1 engine rated at 2060 hp for takeoff mounted in a new, more extensively armored cowling. Armanent was one engine-mounted 30-mm MK 108 cannon and two 20-mm MG 151s in the wing roots. Although primarily a ground-attack plane, the D-12 also made an effective fighter and could attain 453 mph at 37,000 feet when MW 50 boost was used. Production began in March 1945 at the Arado and Fieseler plants, but only a few were delivered.

The D-13 differed from the D-12 by having a Jumo 213EB engine and by having a 20-mm engine-mounted MG 151 cannon in place of the 30-mm MK 108 unit. However, only a couple of prototypes were built.

In the late autumn of 1944, the Technische Amt decided to switch to the Daimler-Benz DB 603 engine for future Fw-190D production. A couple of production Fw 190D-9s were re-engined with the DB 603AE, and during tests one of them clocked 435 mph at 32,800 feet. Plans were made to produce the fighter in series with the DB603E or DB 603LA as the Fw 190D-14 and with the DB 603EB or DB 603G as the Fw 190D-15, but the war ended before these plans could be brought to fruition.

Somewhere between 650 and 700 "Doras" were built before the occupation of Focke-Wulf factories by Allied forces
brought production to an end.

There is an Fw 190D-9 on display at the WPAFB Museum in Dayton, Ohio. An Fw 190D-12 is on display at the Champlin Fighter Museum at Falcon Field, Mesa, Arizona.

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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was
Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
 

[Animal]

coyote,
are you aware the HOTAS 2000 wont be coming out for quite a few months?
Just in case  

[Torgo]

I don't see the 47M or 47N as perk planes at all (there were a TON more Ns built, and they were only barely slower than the Ms, so' I'd rather see the N.)

They'll be better and far more popular than the current 47s, but I don't see them as being more popular or deadly in the arena than the Niki or CHog.


I don't think, after a couple weeks, you'd see the arena taken over by P-47Ns if it wasn't perked. No cannons, and best performance is not at furball alts.

Remember, those amazing speeds are at high altitudes. Aces High has most of its combat under 15K. People keep seeing the 460 or 470 mph max speed and going "WOW! Perk Plane!"

But that's at 30,000 feet. How many fights in AH at 30,000?

10,000ft. and below either the M or N is SLOWER than a P-51D.

It's sort of funny, you'd think that people that really like P-47s WOULDN'T want the M or N to show up as a perk plane; though I guess there's a conflict between getting a P-47 much better than the ones we have now to fly all the time, and bragging about the uberness of the last models of the P-47 :-)

Again, I don't see the slightest reason why the M or N is a perk plane.



[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 02-18-2001).]

[Vermillion]

Agreed Torgo!

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Westy]

 Yes, but speed up high is speed down low too. Lancs and B-17's will have to climb to 50k to escape now     But imo, it'll be faster than a normal Jug down low and they can already do ok there.
 
 -Westy

[Jimdandy]

I would like to see some earlier models of the Jug. Some of the late C and early D models were actually better for the type of combat seen on AH from what I've seen on some of these's posts. WideWing brought up some points on this in one of the posts. They were the Razorback style hogs just before the bubble tops. They were lighter from what I understand. I see your point Westy but the G-10, because of it's rate of climb and weapons load combo, is IMO a better bomber killer than an M or N and we aren't talking about perking it. Personally I think that one of the major flaws with the perk system is that it doesn't take into account the rarity of the plane. I think that needs to weigh more in to all the planes on AH. I would like to see the common WWII fighters for each side be common and the rare ones be rare. Of course the example being the C-hog. I really want to see the perk rides but I want the standard plane set to reflect common fighter types of late 44 and 45. Not that it's blown out of proportion now but weren't the present Jug's the most common type in late 44 45?

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-19-2001).]

[Gorf]

Torgo,

The P47M & N were seen in fair amount numbers in WWII and as for beeing a perk plane.. Just because most battles are below 20k is not a valid reason for  NOT making it a perk plane.  

The P47M was the hot-rod of the Thunderbolts and I have read in many books that the P47M was the FASTEST prop driven fighter off WWII that saw action.  At the optimal performance altitude of the M and the P51 at its optimal altitude.. the P47M had a higher top speed. Enough of this though..

The real reasons I think the M should be a perk plane as well as the N is the following.
1 Its the ultimate ride for the Jug fanatic
2 Handled great and was damm fast, alo including a few 262 kills.
3 There were some cool paint schemes for the M & Ns

My 2 cents.

Gorf

[Torgo]

First off, I want to make clear I'm arguing that a P-47N would be a GREAT plane to add..unperked. I'm not arguing that either the M or N shouldn't be added at all...re-reading this post I have the sneaking suspicion that that's what you think I think :-)


 

Originally posted by Gorf:
The P47M & N were seen in fair amount numbers in WWII and as for beeing a perk plane.. Just because most battles are below 20k is not a valid reason for  NOT making it a perk plane.

The P47M was the hot-rod of the Thunderbolts and I have read in many books that the P47M was the FASTEST prop driven fighter off WWII that saw action.

[/b]  

I totally agree the 47M may well have been the fastest prop driven fighter that saw combat in WWII.

My reaction is...yeah, so? Fastest at altitudes in the MA where battles are ridiculously rare.

30,000 feet might as well be Mars in the AH main arena.

And heck, it's even losing a lot of its speed advantages even as high 15,000-20,000 feet over other AC we already have in AH.

Up to 10,000 feet, depending on the exact way AC are modeled in 1.06, there may well be 4-5 or even MORE unperked fighters that are faster.

At the optimal performance altitude of the M and the P51 at its optimal altitude.. the P47M had a higher top speed. Enough of this though

So, again, who cares? The P47 M or N is not going to be a good enough AC under 15,000 feet that half the arena would fly them if they're unperked.

That's why you perk stuff..to avoid one plane taking over the arena. The Tempest would likely have done that unperked. The M or N likely wouldn't.

The real reasons I think the M should be a perk plane as well as the N is the following.

1   Its the ultimate ride for the Jug fanatic

So don't perk it and give them a hot Jug they can fly all the time :-)

2   Handled great and was damm fast, alo including a few 262 kills.

Lots of aircraft got 262 kills, including P-51Ds (currently unperked.) You could kill a 262 with an Mc202 and a little alt if you got it within 10 minutes of taking off :-)

3   There were some cool paint schemes for the M & Ns

What does this have to do with it being perked or not?

Ok. WHY do you P-47 lovers WANT these planes to be perked? (And I like the P-47 too :-) I mean, if the Dora comes out perked, the Luftwobbles are gonna overload this board so much it crashes from all the whining and complaining.  




[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 02-18-2001).]

[Sancho]

Torgo, I don't know who first suggested a perked P-47M-1, but I know I saw it suggested as a perk and went along with that idea due to the following:

• it was the fastest prop plane of the war (I love saying that)
  
• it was rare, only like 50-100 produced, flown only by the 56th Fighter Group
• climb speeds rivaling the Me109

Now, I admit maybe I may have been unclear on the exact criteria for perk status.  You have convincingly argued that the P-47M will not be a world beater below 10,000 (and probably not until 15k or so), as faster, low alt, cannon wielding planes will abound.  Thus it will give jug pilots a boost, but it will not unbalance the main arena.

So if arena balance is the primary consideration for perk status, then I strongly agree with you... it should be brought into Aces High unperked.    The P-47N given it's much larger production and extensive use in the Pacific, and lesser performance compared to the M should absolutely not be perked.

BTW, this is the paintjob the P-47M-1 should have:

[Nashwan]

It's going to look a bit silly having a rare 1945 plane like the P47M unperked, and perking relatively common early 44 aircraft like the Spit XIV and Tempest.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Nashwan:
It's going to look a bit silly having a rare 1945 plane like the P47M unperked, and perking relatively common early 44 aircraft like the Spit XIV and Tempest.

cough F4U1-C Cough

[Vermillion]

Fine Nashwan, lets just have the P-47N then. Similar performance to the M as long as they are loaded with the same fuel loads, and they were COMMON.

FYI, I would consider the Spit XIV a fairly rare aircraft myself, there was only what.... something like 650 built? Thats nothing compared to aircraft like the 109G6, F4U-1D, P-51D, P-47C, IL-2, Yak-9D, Ju88A4, B-17G or a whole slew of others.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Nashwan]

Sorry RAM I forgot the CHOG.
957 SPit XIVs built, along with another 300 Spit XVIII and 122 Spit 21s. (THAT would make a good perk plane for the RAF, and fit better with the perks being touted for other countries) Add it up and it makes around 1400 Spits of XIV standard or better. That's similar to the number of P47Ns the (much larger) US produced.
The P47N saw combat only in 1945. So far it is the only 1945 plane (other than the CHOG) that is even being mentioned as a non perk aircraft. It jsut doesn't fit with the rest of the planeset.