Author Topic: Industrial wind farms  (Read 5647 times)

Offline Wingnutt

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2010, 04:08:10 PM »

Depends on the spread between what they charge and what they pay, they make money by selling you power, not buying it from you.

They can currently generate power for a tiny fraction of what a point of use producer can on a base line basis.

shamus

 

residential solar is coming, but currently the components cost too much and the cells are not efficient enough to offset the cost.  there are kits already available though, but its still a "novelty" at this point.

if the cost was much lower it would be a GO

if the cells were more efficient it would be a GO

if we get BOTH it will be a true revolution.

Offline dkff49

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2010, 04:16:54 PM »

Depends on the spread between what they charge and what they pay, they make money by selling you power, not buying it from you.

They can currently generate power for a tiny fraction of what a point of use producer can on a base line basis.

shamus

 

Your right when discussing the present. The thing is no one knows what the future will bring and if other means of production become more cost effective. The power company will have to reconfigure to stay alive and my staement was aimed at that time.

On a side note the power companies are already buying power from residences and businesses. Maybe they are already planning for the future in this respect.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2010, 04:20:04 PM »

 Actually Skuzzy I think someone beat you to that idea!!  I recall a linear electrical motor being tested and they used a helium envelope to reduce the friction.It may have been something to do with a railgun,I cant remember exactly,but I do recall the helium being used and a tent to contain it.

   :salute

Well, I'll be damn.  I guess the idea has merit then.  Who would have thought?
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Offline Shamus

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2010, 04:39:05 PM »
Your right when discussing the present. The thing is no one knows what the future will bring and if other means of production become more cost effective. The power company will have to reconfigure to stay alive and my staement was aimed at that time.

On a side note the power companies are already buying power from residences and businesses. Maybe they are already planning for the future in this respect.

I understand where you are coming from and am aware that some utilities have been buying power from point of use sources for quit some time. I would not be too concerned about the utilities staying alive.

Don't get me wrong, I like your idea, makes sense logically....but politically it will never fly.

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Offline sluggish

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2010, 04:59:46 PM »
I understand where you are coming from and am aware that some utilities have been buying power from point of use sources for quit some time. I would not be too concerned about the utilities staying alive.

Don't get me wrong, I like your idea, makes sense logically....but politically it will never fly.

shamus 

Exactly.

Offline 68ZooM

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2010, 06:05:01 PM »
why not instead of putting them on hills and letting wind drive them,  put them in the water one the coast and let the tide/currents drive them.  tide is more constant and predictable than wind, and tidal flow carries more energy than the wind..

I think there trying that method on the new Narrows Bridge in Tacoma, at least that's what they were talking about doing during the construction of the bridge, the tidal flows thru the narrows are of epic perportion, its scary fishing the narrows during tide changes, i moved away almost 9 years ago so i hope they installed it, ill have to go look on the net see if they did.
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2010, 06:11:14 PM »
I did some consulting work for one of the big German electrical utilities about 5 years back. Their financial controller chappie was a very nice sort, took us out to dinner and such. He went through in minute detail how much of a tax scam the German wind farms were - subsidised building costs, utilities obliged by the Feds to buy power from them, at a higher price than the utilities charged their customers (!) with the shortfall being made up by, you guessed it, the Feds.

That and the fact the power generated wouldn't go very far through the grid.

Great work if you can get it.
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2010, 06:21:22 PM »


Some of the Sterling designs are pretty interesting as well.

It is a subject I find fascinating.


I listened to a NPR segment about the use of Sterling engines for this purpose, sounds promising, but I don't know that much about it.
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Offline dkff49

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2010, 08:27:44 PM »
I understand where you are coming from and am aware that some utilities have been buying power from point of use sources for quit some time. I would not be too concerned about the utilities staying alive.

Don't get me wrong, I like your idea, makes sense logically....but politically it will never fly.

shamus 

I'm not so much worried about them staying alive. I was just wondering if they may somewhere down the road whether it be in my lifetime or not shift their bread and butter from generation to energy storage. Every now and then something happens that causes businesses including power companies to go in directions that they never expected to go and systems that allow customers to produce their own power and are inexpensive enough could cause that to happen.

I don't think that either of us will be alive to say I told you so when this question is proved or disproved but I think it an interesting question none-the-less.
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Offline Barrett

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2010, 09:32:02 PM »
why not instead of putting them on hills and letting wind drive them,  put them in the water one the coast and let the tide/currents drive them.  tide is more constant and predictable than wind, and tidal flow carries more energy than the wind..

Agreed + 1. There are plans for 130 or so 400' windmills to be placed in Nantucket Sound. Secretary Salazar must make a decision by the end of this month (I think) as a final step in the permitting process which has been going on for about ten years. Many are for it, many are against it. IMHO, hydroelectric generators are a more viable option because as Wingnutt states - tides are more predictable, "read absolutely predictable" and the velocities are as well known. This would be a much more reliable source of alternate energy. However, salt water is an environment that carries its own problems not the least of which is galvanic corrosion. If one were to google "Nantucket Sound windfarm" you will probably find enough about this project to satisfy anyone.

Personally, I hope they don't build the windfarm and turn their seemingly endless energies toward hydroelectric energy production - just seems to make more sense to me. Anyone can buy a copy of an Eldridge's Tide and Pilot Book which is published annually for around $12.00 and know (for a particular area) how fast the water flows in what direction and what time it will reverse and flow in the other direction. It's absolute, to the point tides can be predicted for any point in future time - you can't do that with wind..

 

 
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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2010, 12:15:12 AM »
Sonicblu, I should think a brine tank would be a better medium to store heat.  It can carry higher thermal loads with lower pressures due to the higher boiling point.  Run water pipes through the brine to convert the water to steam.

You can also store energy in a large flywheel.  Take any excess energy to power a DC motor to spin the wheel.  Multiple wheels if you have enough excess.  They can be stacked.  Or use the excess thermal energy to a turbine to spin the flywheel assembly.

Take a few 100 ton flywheels and they can generate quite a bit of energy for a while.

Some of the Sterling designs are pretty interesting as well.

It is a subject I find fascinating.

EDIT:  Thinking a bit about this.  What about taking the flywheels and submerge them in oil and pump them full of helium (or wrap them in a helium balloon structure).  This would not reduce the mass, but would help to levitate the flywheels reducing the friction to a much smaller coefficient than suspending it in air.  Hmm.  Just thinking out loud.


We have looked at several salt type storage systems. We had a proposal that would rival Nevada One solar park. It was a solar trough design with salt storage. 300 million to build and with out the generous support of the American public in the form of a grant would never pay for itself.
We are still looking at a hybrid system that may include salt. They are getting up to 600 degrees with salt.
Because we dont need the high temps the engineers are looking at  water. We are trying to make the thing as passive as possible to help lower maintanence costs.

I think the maglev guys have already looked into magnetically levitateing horizontal flywheels. I will ask in depth next time we meet.
Im just a little guy hashing out the letter of intent for a power sales contract.

They are really into trying to get a maglev train in the U.S. for transport insted of diesel powered.

They have something to do with the Mach 10 project.

Interesting stuff for sure.

Offline Angus

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2010, 12:47:49 AM »
I've been looking into installing one myself. It is a small one, but would deliver approx 25.000 KW-hours a year, which is all the hot water we use and some extra. That power costs me about 2.500 $. The machinery makes about 8000$, so there you go, all returned in some odd 4 years.
There have been som odd claims that the energy put into the mechanism will never be returned. It is complete rubbish, since it would mean that the manufacturer would be losing a lot of money on the selling  :devil
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Offline warhed

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2010, 01:05:32 AM »
Uh, nuclear power plants produce plenty of extremely dangerous by-products.  Those cooling rods have to be replaced periodically and they are very dangerous to deal with.

Nuclear power plants also have a shelf life.  After they are shutdown, they are left to rot where they stand.  They cannot be rebuilt or refurbished as the core materials have all started breaking down to thier elemental components.

Nuclear is not cheap.  It is not free and no one has made any profit from them to date.  If they were not government subsidized, they would bankrupt the companies that run them.

I am not saying wind power is a solution.  The current implementations are poorly thought out.  They could do much better.

I work in the Nuclear Industry Skuzzy.  
There is great care taken in the very few reactors that have been shut down, they are very far from being left to rot where they stand.  

Nuclear fuel actually is very cheap, considering a typical reactor has 3 sections of fuel, each section lasts for 6 years.  We buy a lot of fuel from old Soviet nuclear weapons as well, on the cheap.  To say that no one has made money on them is absolutely positively wrong.  In fact, the nuclear plant I worked at, made around $2 million dollars a day while running, we lost close to $1 million a day when we shut down to refuel, but refueling outages these days take on average under 28 days, and those only happen once every two years.  For a plant with a dual reactor setup, they lose even less, as they can keep one reactor running while the other is refueled.

We are using 1950s, and 1960s technology.  Even to this day, quite a bit of the plants' systems have yet to be digitized.  My plant was the last licensed nuclear power plant in the country, also, the largest one to date.  When I came in around 2003, we were putting out around 1200 megawatts, in 2007, we had upgraded enough to be able to start putting out close to 1600 megawatts.  Almost every plant in the country was undergoing the same upgrades, so 100 or 101 civilian nuclear plants all adding around 200-400 megawatts to their output, not bad considering the typical coal plant puts out around 600-800.  The newest designs being built in Japan and elsewhere in the world are even more efficient, even more inherently safe, as well.
 
And, we produce no greenhouse gases.  The water we return to the atmosphere, or lakes\rivers\oceans is cleaner than when we took it in.  

Every amount of nuclear fuel we have EVER spent in our reactor, is sitting in a containment pool on site.  No nuclear plants in this country have yet to run out of room on their premises to store spent fuel.  This is why Yucca Mountain is a must, we need a single secure location to start storing this stuff.

Nuclear power is the most logical, profitable source of energy we have.  Nothing else out there currently can even come close to the raw power it can create, and minus wind\water\solar, nothing is as clean or safe.

Wind Energy just does not hold up to what a single nuclear power plant can produce.  To equal one single nuclear plant with a wind farm, you're talking a farm the size of a state.  Now imagine trying to hook that mega wind farm up to the grid, we just don't have the infrastructure to properly use wind\water\solar in a capacity to solve our energy crisis.  

What we currently need is a nationwide Grid Upgrade.  Plants are selling energy over thousands of miles these days, money is being lost in the transmission, and as we get closer and closer to the day when we take in more than we put out (estimated from 10-25 years), we are going to start having regular massive scale black outs.  Even if we do starting building new nuclear plants, there is a limit to what the grid is going to be able to take.  This is not theory, it is fact.  Building wind farms and other renewable resource power plants is not going to solve that.  We need more power, and a new grid to handle it.  

Once we can get started on that, I would be a huge proponent of using wind\water\solar plants to start getting rid of coal plants.  
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 01:36:29 AM by warhed »
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Offline oakranger

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2010, 02:39:55 AM »
Personally, I don't see them as a very "green" solution.  

Sure, they have their good points, but they have their bad points too.  I see them as a form of habitat destruction.  And specifically, a destroyer of a habitat that's already under enough stress (prairies).  Many prairie species avoid vertical structures, so spreading these wind turbines around renders the habitat useless for them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9srPoOU6_Z4&feature=player_embedded

Depending on the study you choose, I guess they're dangerous, or not dangerous to raptors and migrating birds.  

Personally, I won't fly my birds around them.  I've seen dead raptors near them, I've seen video of them killing birds, and I know of falconers who've had their birds killed by them.  I've also noted the lack of wildlife around them.

On the other hand, I've seen studies that showed them to be only a minor cause of bird mortality (1-2 bird deaths of all species, per turbine).  And, I doubt they're as dangerous to birds as power lines and methane-burners at landfills.







I am with you 100% MtnMan.  We have four areas that have them and i am sicken seeing the landscap look like crap with them there.  On one area, there are over 200 put in the Tall Grass Prairie.  They really killed the native grass ecosystem.  A state Rep tried to convince me that the land was in poor shape from grazing, but i fire back asking him how having these invasive man-made object is to help the land.  He try to feed me a load of crap that the company in working on conservation practices by remove the grazing and letting the land go back to nature.  I straight out told him the removing any grazing will not solved the issue and all the equipment, digging and roads they put in just encourage more weeds and other invasive plant to move in, dis-place a lot of grassland birds, especially the Greater Prairie Chicken, and the blades will likely kill a lot of hawks, falcons, and eagles the fly around them.  Well, the argument kept going back and forth till somebody had to step in and pull that state rep away for the fact i provided more facts then what he could. 
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Industrial wind farms
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2010, 06:18:16 AM »
Yes warhed, I was exaggerating about the "rot" comment.  The point being, they are dead and nothing else can be built there.  They are no longer making power.  Has anyone re-built a nuclear power plant to replace one of the many that have been shut down?  How many more are going to be shutdown in the next 50 years?

Cost per watt, nuclear is the most expensive solution available.  Again, if it were not for government subsidies, the companies running the plants would go bankrupt.  Even then, we have seen substantial increases in the cost of electricity, which have all been cited due to the cost of the nuclear plant we have here.

I am not advocating abandoning nuclear, nor am I against it, but I also do not see it as a panacea to the problems involved with supplying electricity to the masses.  It has its own downsides.  The spent fuel rods are a huge downside as far as I am concerned.  The cost per watt, to maintain the plants, seem to be out of control as well.

Whether it is true or not, it is the excuse most used when the electric company here applies for rate increases to the PUC.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 06:45:56 AM by Skuzzy »
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