Author Topic: 190A5 vs 190A8  (Read 65277 times)

Offline Krusty

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #150 on: April 05, 2010, 06:59:03 PM »
That is why the jet does not benefit from downthrottling, unlike the patently obvious example here:

  http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/339-hanseman-24may44.jpg

I disagree with almost everything you've said here.

You use examples that have other explanations for the cause-effect relationship.

It was not gyroscopic twisting that makes turning a plane turn worse or better at different throttle speeds. You note the P-51 example dropped a whopping 20-degrees of flaps (almost half) and chopped throttle, and only after a prolonged turn fight gained advantage.

The simple explanation is he was turning slower, but tighter. The lesser skilled Me109 pilots (late 1944? Let's face it, few aces left by then) and probably the presence of gunpods or any number of other factors lead to the P51 shooting down the 109.

You make such a large and elaborate argument about this, as if it's a new and novel thing, but it's old-hat for most sims in gaming history. The reason you chop throttle isn't to turn better due to gyroscopic tendency, it's to get the better ANGLE, simple as that.

Ask the guys that fly P-47s in this game and rack up boucou kills. They drop the flaps and cut the throttle to the same end result: They use it to cut in behind somebody for a better angle.



(edit: typo fix)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 09:17:02 PM by Krusty »

Offline Scherf

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #151 on: April 05, 2010, 08:17:09 PM »
Ignore Gaston - he's the world's pre-eminent (only?) crypto-physicist and has a bottomless pit noise upon which to call.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Baumer

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #152 on: April 05, 2010, 08:31:32 PM »
In response to this thread I've chosen a new sig for the time being, check it out.
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Offline Spikes

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #153 on: April 05, 2010, 08:35:54 PM »
In response to this thread I've chosen a new sig for the time being, check it out.
LOL.
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Offline Vulcan

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #154 on: April 05, 2010, 08:36:37 PM »
The key factor here is, I theorize, nose lenght: Take a barbell handle with disc weights on ONE side only, pointing the discs down: A short handle will make it easier to "point" the weight at the ground at a SLANTED angle OFF from the vertical: Lenghten the handle and you will feel the pressure inside your hand rise higher, despite the disc weight being the same.

The disc weight is an exact replica of the prop thrust: Slanting the angle off the vertical is the equivalent of what an aircraft is doing while turning: Twisting the disc sideways to where it really wants to go without your action...

Uhhh wut?

Offline thorsim

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #155 on: April 05, 2010, 10:38:06 PM »
a couple of points here ...

1) i was annoyed at the constant demands from some for "data" from some who never post any themselves, even after data was already posted.  especially since the data in question is broadcast monthly for anyone with even a casual interest in the topic to absorb.  so i felt that just a little bit of research burden placed on the doubter/hater was not out of line.

2) i think that in the case of the 190 that the subjective handling modeling is taken from a poor source and over represented so that the advantages of a vastly superior RW roll rate are neutralized to a large extent by a turn rate and handling modeling that is in line only with the worst recorded testing that has been dismissed by any serious historians of the topic.

that imo is why we do not see the 190 "out turning" planes in the game, or surprising anyone with it's maneuverability even though most accounts suggest that it should.

i don't want to be lumped in with turn rate or radius arguments going on in this thread now, my issues are mostly with the flight/handling character of the FM and i think i have been clear with the hows and whys of my POV.
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Offline WMLute

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #156 on: April 05, 2010, 11:08:51 PM »
I don't recall ever seeing hard data posted by you Thorsim.

I have seen you post stuff that you CALL data but is pretty much opinions and conjecture.  Nothing even close to what would be required to prove your point or show that HTC might be using flawed data.

I for one would LOVE the 190's to be tweaked a bit.  The a5 is a bit slow IMO and I do think the 190's as a whole are a tad sluggish and should be slightly better turners.

My main ride in AirWarrior was the 190A4 and I love the 190 series.  I have always felt they were a tad under modeled in AcesHigh.

BUT I have also never seen anything posted by anybody that shows that HTC is wrong (except for the slower 190a5.  I think i've seen it pretty much proven they are slower in AH than they should be) so I just don't fly them much anymore.

You are the one saying AH is "wrong" re: the 190.  The burden of proof is then on your shoulders and you need to put up or shut up.  Either show some actual data that can prove HTC has modeled the 190 series wrong (anecdotes and opinions are not Data) or accept that what HTC has done is pretty close and live with it.

HTC has been proven wrong in the past and they fixed the modeling.  It can and has been done.  HTC will fix any flaws in the flight modeling if it is proven to be flawed or incorrect.

I have never felt they have a bias vs. German rides and are quite open to input from the community.

But "so and so said..." and "I feel..." just ain't gonna cut it and will never get anything changed.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 11:14:17 PM by WMLute »
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Offline Baumer

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #157 on: April 05, 2010, 11:15:12 PM »
Thorsim please consider this, both Krusty and I have posted data in this thread about the weight of the 190A-8. While our numbers don't match, they both point out that the current A-8 is overweight.

It's only a matter of degree by how much, the weight is off.

If HTC sees the data and feels it's sufficiently accurate enough to change from what the current model was based on, they will do it. They have made changes in the past with other models (when the data is provided) so I expect them to make them now if it's appropriate. Correcting the weight will directly effect the wing loading (versus other pseudo-physics), which in turn, leads to better sustained turn performance.     
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Offline Stoney

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #158 on: April 05, 2010, 11:20:10 PM »

2) i think that in the case of the 190 that the subjective handling modeling is taken from a poor source and over represented so that the advantages of a vastly superior RW roll rate are neutralized to a large extent by a turn rate and handling modeling that is in line only with the worst recorded testing that has been dismissed by any serious historians of the topic.

There is nothing in the qualitative report that supports porking the 190 in-game.  There's no numbers in that report you keep talking about.  HTC can't model anything off of that report.  For the last time, the turn rate of the 190 must be poor, from an aerodynamic standpoint.  Unless you're willing to rewrite some fundamental aerodynamics equations, the 190 should suck in a turn, relative to most of the other planes in the game.  It does not handle high angles of attack well at any altitude.  That doesn't mean the 190 sucked in real-life.  Neither the P-51 or the P-47 could turn worth a damn either, and they were very successful.  Obviously, this game adds something to the mix that was different from the actual war.

Quote
i don't want to be lumped in with turn rate or radius arguments going on in this thread now, my issues are mostly with the flight/handling character of the FM and i think i have been clear with the hows and whys of my POV.

From a rhetorical point of view, this statement makes no sense.  You don't want to argue the math that shows why the 190 maneuvers the way it does, but you want to complain about the way the 190 maneuvers?  That's the proverbial "taking your ball and going home".  
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 11:22:48 PM by Stoney »
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Offline thorsim

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #159 on: April 05, 2010, 11:40:17 PM »
well i have a question, what makes you think the 190s are slightly under modeled?

I don't recall ever seeing hard data posted by you Thorsim.

I have seen you post stuff that you CALL data but is pretty much opinions and conjecture.  Nothing even close to what would be required to prove your point or show that HTC might be using flawed data.

I for one would LOVE the 190's to be tweaked a bit.  The a5 is a bit slow IMO and I do think the 190's as a whole are a tad sluggish and should be slightly better turners.

My main ride in AirWarrior was the 190A4 and I love the 190 series.  I have always felt they were a tad under modeled in AcesHigh.

BUT I have also never seen anything posted by anybody that shows that HTC is wrong (except for the slower 190a5.  I think i've seen it pretty much proven they are slower in AH than they should be) so I just don't fly them much anymore.

You are the one saying AH is "wrong" re: the 190.  The burden of proof is then on your shoulders and you need to put up or shut up.  Either show some actual data that can prove HTC has modeled the 190 series wrong (anecdotes and opinions are not Data) or accept that what HTC has done is pretty close and live with it.

HTC has been proven wrong in the past and they fixed the modeling.  It can and has been done.  HTC will fix any flaws in the flight modeling (eventually sometimes) if it is shown to be flawed or incorrect.

I have never felt they have a bias vs. German rides and are quite open to input from the community.

But "so and so said..." and "I feel..." just ain't gonna cut it to get anything changed.
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Offline thorsim

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #160 on: April 05, 2010, 11:58:03 PM »
the handling in the game is inconsistent with the vast majority of tests and POs of the plane. 

that is a fact "."

that is what i questioned, and i offered an explanation.  somewhere in the process i made a statement for which i have now shown the source which no one now questions. 

why now do i feel like you want me to defend myself once again?

the FM does not match up with what it is supposed to be historically.  you think the reason is in the numbers,
i think the reason is in the decisions about the source data and the goals for the FM.

i see no need to debate as there is no way for us to know how much of the FM code can be described as subjective and how much is numerically well defined.   

i have no problem with being in respectful disagreement with some of you, however i see no reason to be badgered for offering a well supported opinion on these matters.   

Thorsim please consider this, both Krusty and I have posted data in this thread about the weight of the 190A-8. While our numbers don't match, they both point out that the current A-8 is overweight.

It's only a matter of degree by how much, the weight is off.

If HTC sees the data and feels it's sufficiently accurate enough to change from what the current model was based on, they will do it. They have made changes in the past with other models (when the data is provided) so I expect them to make them now if it's appropriate. Correcting the weight will directly effect the wing loading (versus other pseudo-physics), which in turn, leads to better sustained turn performance.     
There is nothing in the qualitative report that supports porking the 190 in-game.  There's no numbers in that report you keep talking about.  HTC can't model anything off of that report.  For the last time, the turn rate of the 190 must be poor, from an aerodynamic standpoint.  Unless you're willing to rewrite some fundamental aerodynamics equations, the 190 should suck in a turn, relative to most of the other planes in the game.  It does not handle high angles of attack well at any altitude.  That doesn't mean the 190 sucked in real-life.  Neither the P-51 or the P-47 could turn worth a damn either, and they were very successful.  Obviously, this game adds something to the mix that was different from the actual war.

From a rhetorical point of view, this statement makes no sense.  You don't want to argue the math that shows why the 190 maneuvers the way it does, but you want to complain about the way the 190 maneuvers?  That's the proverbial "taking your ball and going home". 
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Quote from: oldman
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Offline Baumer

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #161 on: April 06, 2010, 12:41:39 AM »
i have no problem with being in respectful disagreement with some of you, however i see no reason to be badgered for offering a well supported opinion on these matters.   

Thank you Thorsim I appreciate that very much (if it's directed to me). It was not my intent to badger you, merely to point out an alternative path to making the point about the flight model.

I do have a question for you regarding your position. If I've read your previous post correctly, you feel that the FM's physics vary from plane to plane, and that HTC made decisions about how to model the 190's physics in order to fit into their goals for Aces High. Am I understanding your point correctly? 
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Offline Gaston

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #162 on: April 06, 2010, 02:24:33 AM »
I disagree with almost everything you've said here.

You use examples that have other explanations for the cause-effect relationship.

It was not gyroscopic twisting that makes turning a plane turn worse or better at different throttle speeds. You note the P-51 example dropped a whopping 20-degrees of flaps (almost half) and chopped throttle, and only after a prolonged turn fight gained advantage.

The simple explanation is he was turning slower, but tighter. The lesser skilled Me109 pilots (late 1944? Let's face it, few aces left by then) and probably the presence of gunpods or any number of other factors lead to the P51 shooting down the 109.

You make such a large and elaborate argument about this, as if it's a new and novel thing, but it's old-hat for most sims in gaming history. The reason you chop throttle isn't to turn better due to gyroscopic tendency, it's to get the better ANGLE, simple as that.

Ask the guys that fly P-47s in this game and rack up boucou kills. They drop the flaps and cut the throttle to the same end result: They use it to cut in behind somebody for a better angle.



(edit: typo fix)

    -I was NOT talking about a GYROSCOPIC effect...

    In a turn, the inside prop disc half move SLOWER forward (by an infinitesimal amount) than the outside disc half: To achieve that result means the ENTIRE thrust in the slower (inside-turn) disc half HAS to be overcome COMPLETELY: Partially overcoming the thrust would yield no forward speed difference between the inside-turn and oustside-turn disc half...

    A rope with 200 lbs hanging from it, the 200 lbs weight being pushed up with a force of 100 lbs, will still have 100 lbs of tension in it... However infinitesimal the difference in velocity between the inside/outside-turn prop disc halves, you have to overcome ALL of the relevant disc thrust half to gain any difference in forward movement speed of the disc halves...

    In effect, the center of the whole disc's thrust moves into the inside-turn disc half, gaining probably a small leverage against the nose being raised.

    The trouble is, however small the leverage, the prop blade makes a right-angle stress-riser against the nose, enormously increasing the pressing down on the wing's center of lift, meaning you have to reduce power if you want to reduce your REAL-LIFE wingloading...

    Jets have no 90° stress-risers, and thrust being at the rear, it is easier to raise a horizontal bottle by the rear end, or the middle, than by the neck...

    Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the elevator tail-depression force has equal leverage to the upper disc half not wanting to be pulled back: Same lenght roughly: longer tail than nose on a P-51, but then NO 90° stress-riser on the tail either, unlike the nose...

    If the total disc thrust at WEP is say 4000 lbs: 1/2 of that is 2000 lbs. Equal leverage means the tail needs 2000 lbs of downward force just to defeat the upper disc half not wanting to be pulled back.

    That is an EXTRA 2000 lbs of DOWNWARD force down on the wingloading: This would vary greatly if the prop aircraft nose is shorter compared to the wing's center of lift. Or if you unload the disc by downthrottling...

    I don't see what gyroscopic effects have to do with any of this... The passive stability of an aircraft varies with power: It is greater the greater the prop disc load is: The prop disc load is at its greatest in the middle range of speeds, say 250-350 MPH for a P-51: these are the worst speeds for sustained turn rates on most but maybe not all WWII fighters...

    Karhila preferred to downthrottle his Me-109G-6 down to 160 MPH: If he preferred this sustained turn rate for itself, or for the smaller sustained turn radius it offered, matters little: THAT is the speed he found most advantageous in the Me-109G-6 for prolonged turn-fighting... Similarly, the P-51D's best sustained turn rate was obviously very low with flaps down and prop on coarse: Around 190-200 MPH at most...

    Nothing too difficult to get in what actual pilots have said...

    Gaston

    P.S. By the way, the P-47 is one of the few aircrafts that historically benefitted very  little from downthrottling in sustained turns... Only for brief angle gains as far as I could see, and historically it also never used its flaps, at least its pilots NEVER mention using them in turns...

     G.

    



    

    

Offline Angus

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #163 on: April 06, 2010, 03:29:50 AM »
No armor or armament, so it is lighter. Same ASh-82 engine as the La-7 (or more specific the 82T post-war civilian version used in transport planes); 1530-1900 hp depending on rating. So, lighter than an A-8 with similar power as the BMW on MIL (1730 hp).

One day they'll be tearing holes in the sky with it then ;)
Anyway, off to my 109G testing ;)
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Offline Bronk

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #164 on: April 06, 2010, 05:13:48 AM »
well i have a question, what makes you think the 190s are slightly under modeled?


If the series is a bit over weight as Baumer and Krusty point out.  If HTC agree and fix it what do you think happens to the FW's performance?

I'm willing to bet ALL areas will improve except maybe zoom.  You kept on about the model being porked and its not... just the weight plugged into it might be off a bit.
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