Author Topic: Setup changes needed???  (Read 2299 times)

Offline Husker

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2010, 01:01:38 PM »
As CiC, the responsibility is to post a "credible force". What that consists of is is spelled out in the FSO rules. If the orders short change a CAP or Strike Package, then shame on the CiC. If it comes up short due to players not showing then thats something that needs to be handled in house inside the squad. The only difference between large/small squads is the smaller one will never be tasked by itself. (Unless some kind of scout/recon effort.) If shooting an email to another squads CO with your freq/plan is to much work I'd say FSO isn't for you. If the contact in the other squadron is stonewalling or ignoring you... then they are not doing their job. Unlike RL, CO's can't be relived for failing to hold up their end due to inaction. But, as a whole the FSO community will know and not want to work with that squadron.

Offline MachNix

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2010, 02:34:27 PM »
I am new to FSO and flying with the 801 Squad.  At this point in my carrier, I still enjoy flying with a small squad.  Flying with a smaller squad means you have to be on top of your game; there is no one there to clean things up if you miss.  If BoxBoy didn't get two objects destroyed, we (the 801 Squad) would have gotten nothing for our efforts.  Sure it is hard to hold your head up when you have your hands full trying to keep two batons twirling while leading the entire Brewster Marching Band as they shot you with spitballs, but there is a certain amount of pride knowing it took at least four of them to take you down.

The one thing I would like to see to give the smaller squads some recognition is to add two categories in the stats section of the event logs: Top Squads: Objects Destroyed per Pilot; and Top Squads: Kills per Pilot.  The categories would take the total number of objects destroyed (or number of kills) and divide by the number of pilots in the squad and then show the top three squads.  I say "add" because squads that get the most objects destroyed and kills should be recognized, but the smaller squads can not compete because of their fewer numbers and makes them feel less appreciated.

Offline Saxman

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2010, 03:02:38 PM »
Personally, as a CiC I tend to find the smaller squads easier to work with when it comes to min/max numbers on airframes. As a squad leader I generally don't like half my guys in one type and another half in another. It can make unit cohesion more difficult to maintain, particularly if my two "halves" are in rides of vastly differing performance (IE, in the VERY first Finland setup after the introduction of the Brewster I ended up with four Brewsters and four 109G-2s in my squadron). When I have a squad of 16-21 requesting a high-end ride allowed in limited numbers say--a 16-21 requests P-47Ms, but I'm only allowed 24 of them--it means either I have to assign all of them to one squadron and not allow them to any other squads that may desire that ride, or split a small number of those 24 across 2-3 different squadrons. OTOH, I can give those P-47s to two 7-10 or three 4-6 squadrons and not have to worry about "wasted" airframes or mixed units, which can be more complicated for the squad C/O to manage.

It also means I don't have to micromanage by telling a large squad, "Ok, you get eight of these. Any extra put in Plane B" and hope that everyone in that squad gets the memo from the C/O and doesn't up an extra limited ride.

That's one place where I find smaller squadrons like mine VERY valuable: plugging those awkward gaps in strike/defense group numbers or airframe requirements that the large squadrons can create.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 05:22:13 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Husker

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2010, 03:41:45 PM »
Sax brings up a good point. As a member of one of the larger squads, on average we see two, maybe three "hot" rides in a year. I doubt you'll ever see us roaming around as a pack of 262s. (We had a pair of them to use as scouts about 3 years ago.) There are pros and cons on both sides. As it stands right now its fairly workable.

Now, the point Mach raises; one of squad kill ratios. If figuring out who had the most kills per member floats your boat then go for it. I don't think the majority of the players really care. We all know who's been a pain in the arse to mess with by reputation and who leaves something to be desired. Trying to make to many people happy like that smacks of the "Warfare Pin For Every Job" thing the Navy is doing. I personally really don't care how a frame plays out big picture wise. (Unless I was CiC and planned it.) 
1: Long as I had a good fight and got home.
2: Had a good fight and went down swinging.
3: Got bounced by a dozen NIKIs while I puttered along in my SBD alone and unafraid and lasted longer then six and a half seconds, I am happy with the frame.
As a squadron, I don't feel our job it to put up "big numbers". Only to have fun.

Offline AKKuya

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2010, 06:37:57 PM »
Personally, as a CiC I tend to find the smaller squads easier to work with when it comes to min/max numbers on airframes. As a squad leader I generally don't like half my guys in one type and another half in another. It can make unit cohesion more difficult to maintain, particularly if my two "halves" are in rides of vastly differing performance (IE, in the VERY first Finland setup after the introduction of the Brewster I ended up with four Brewsters and four 109G-2s in my squadron). When I have a squad of 16-21 requesting a high-end ride allowed in limited numbers say--a 16-21 requests P-47Ms, but I'm only allowed 24 of them--it means either I have to assign all of them to one squadron and not allow them to any other squads that may desire that ride, or split a small number of those 24 across 2-3 different squadrons. OTOH, I can give those P-47s to two 7-10 or three 4-6 squadrons and not have to worry about "wasted" airframes or mixed units, which can be more complicated for the squad C/O to manage.

It also means I don't have to micromanage by telling a large squad, "Ok, you get eight of these. Any extra put in Plane B" and hope that everyone in that squad gets the memo from the C/O and doesn't up an extra limited ride.

That's one place where I find smaller squadrons like mine VERY valuable: plugging those awkward gaps in strike/defense group numbers or airframe requirements that the large squadrons can create.

The other point of view on this issue with split rides for a large squad is this.  In Frame 2 for Operation Marita Axis, I had two squads with 22-27 for commitment level.  I tasked them both with 10 Ju-88's and rest in Bf-110C's.  Each squad had seperate target airfields.  They were completely on their own. 

From a CIC planning standpoint, having large squads makes it easier to defend and attack targets and deal with the mininums and maximums of assigned aircraft.  Next time I'm up to bat, I would personally like to have 4 squads with 22-27 commitment levels on one side.

If a 4-6 squad feels like they are being the fodder for the other side, then by all means ask one of the other larger squads to merge with.  The main reason is working with other players for the overall war effort.  At the end of the day, it's the teamwork of many squads that wins the Frame.  It's definetely not a player shooting down 10 planes.  Impressive but not enough to be the defining moment.

We have 46 squads right now in FSO.

3 are 22-27
5 are 16-21
11 are 11-15
14 are 7-10
12 are 4-6

That's 8 large squads, 11 medium squads and 26 small squads.  An experienced CIC who has the free time to spend 15 hours working on the orders can create a great mixture of assignments, aircraft allocation and fun for all.  One of the key issues expressed earlier is that a merging of a small squad to a bigger one does make it easier on the CIC duty with more noggins working together.  In the AK squad, we have 3 of us that work together on the CIC duties.  A 4-6 squad might be the whole group planning together too.

Surviving in FSO is a valid aspiration at the beginning of the event.  Part of the success is the only issue that comes down to the individual player.  Spending time flying all aircraft in the MA's and not just your favorite 5.  What will all the great planning and great communication do if the assigned pilot to the assigned plane have never met before until FSO?

Hey, everyone here's pays the same 14.95 a month and spends it how they want to.
Chuck Norris can pick oranges from an apple tree and make the best lemonade in the world. Every morning when you wake up, swallow a live toad. Nothing worse can happen to you for the rest of the day. They say money can't buy happiness. I would like the opportunity to find out. Why be serious?

Offline Boxboy

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2010, 07:02:23 PM »
:huh  Rubbish

The reasons larger squads fare better in FSO is not just numbers. They communicate well within their squadron and act in concert. There is no reason if 3..4...or 5 smaller squadrons grouped together can't achieve the same success. The keys are communication and teamwork. Too often Squads in FSO act as lone wolves without the coordination of the group. Therefore they decide their own fate. The CiC's are required to issue orders in advance to allow proper communication among the squadrons. All it takes is someone in these groups to step up and initiate contact prior to and maintain it during the event. I'll assure you that if this were done more frequently, a lot of the smaller squadrons would enjoy their time in FSO.

Rubbish NO 4 man squad no matter HOW good their commo is, is going to out fly and out gun a 20 man squad and any diatribe trying indicate different is "whistling by the graveyard".  The hoard and gangbanging have long been a nemisis to online combat sims and they still are EVEN in the FSO
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Offline Boxboy

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2010, 07:15:47 PM »
Well 801 Sqd. FAA actually chose option "B" which was delay our attack and hit the enemy when they were refueling. The problem is I didn't have the patience to delay the attack enough and the enemy was still up and ready. It's tough circling in enemy territory at 15k. I think next time it might be better to delay taking off and sit on the ground for 20 minutes. I waited until A32 stopped flashing and then we started our attack.  A32 started flashing again while we were in bound and that's where I should have put on the brakes and loitered for a few more minutes. We attacked and I made a lousy bomb run so I circled back to strafe and then the brewsters hit us. It was over quickly  :salute. I think our attack would have worked if we delayed 10 more minutes.

Cheers,
gus

The problem was that the first strike package was spotted on the way in, no amount of waiting would have given us an advantage, since they would have fueled half and then the the next half, reulting in better than 2 v 1 odds at best :joystick:
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Offline TUK

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2010, 07:44:43 PM »
The problem was that the first strike package was spotted on the way in, no amount of waiting would have given us an advantage, since they would have fueled half and then the the next half, reulting in better than 2 v 1 odds at best :joystick:
The question is, 'How many defended 113'? If you defended 113 by yourselves' (4-6) than I see your point. If you had help, then a  propper defense strategy should have been in place.(co-op)..  :headscratch:
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Offline Boxboy

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2010, 09:11:45 PM »
The question is, 'How many defended 113'? If you defended 113 by yourselves' (4-6) than I see your point. If you had help, then a  propper defense strategy should have been in place.(co-op)..  :headscratch:

we were not on defense we were a mop up strike package assigned to try and catch the cap on the ground refueling, but since the main strike package and the figther sweep ahead of us was spotted we had no chance of catching the cap on the ground.

Our fighter sweep did not kill any of the cap apparently and only tried to lure them away from the target, which failed and then we were left to fend for outselves I guess since I never saw the fighter sweep return (maybe the cap killed them all??).

All in all the 20 man cap squad did a great job and our plan failed miserably :)
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Offline daddog

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2010, 11:46:41 PM »
Quote
Interesting comments in this thread.
Very.

I will never eliminate the smaller squads in FSO, nor will I force the break up of larger squads.

Yes sometimes the smaller squads get overwhelmed, but as others have already pointed out if smaller squads are coupled with other squads, that issue can often be avoided. Often, not always. Even as scripted as FSO can be you have plenty of unknowns and sometimes things don't work out even if the CiC has done a great job. I feel your pain Boxboy. Been there. So has just about every other mid size squad on down. Sometimes we have a lousy week, other times it seems to run the whole FSO.

FSO is a squad based event. All squads are welcome. If that means just two buddies who like to fly together want to sign up for FSO, they are welcome. If a mega squad from the MA wants to try out FSO, they can. So long as the squad of 2 and the 30+ MA squad can follow the rules and support FSO as everyone else has to, they are welcome to participate and enjoy the best of Aces High.

Sorry things were ugly for you Boxboy. Hopefully April will be an improvement for you and your squad.

MachNix, I really like this idea.  :aok
Quote
The one thing I would like to see to give the smaller squads some recognition is to add two categories in the stats section of the event logs: Top Squads: Objects Destroyed per Pilot; and Top Squads: Kills per Pilot.  The categories would take the total number of objects destroyed (or number of kills) and divide by the number of pilots in the squad and then show the top three squads.  I say "add" because squads that get the most objects destroyed and kills should be recognized, but the smaller squads can not compete because of their fewer numbers and makes them feel less appreciated.
I will ask how hard that would be to setup in the log parser. My guess is it will not be easy, but it can't hurt to ask. :)
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Offline Boxboy

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2010, 05:13:23 AM »
How about this DD, walkons are assigned to small squads and the squad they are assigned to WILL take them, this allows for new guys to learn about FSO and lets small squad have more bodies and perhaps if they like what they see some new members.  I this last frame we had several guys and we were messing around finding them slots till almost launch time, whereas if they were given to a side and the CIC for that side just assigned them to small squads 4-6 we might get more guys and bigger squads??

I know some squads don't want new blood but I bet this would work in the main.
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Offline akbmzawy

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2010, 08:34:13 AM »
Hi Boxboy.

I dont think allowing walkons would ever be approved.
If they did how would you handle the disruptive individuals?

Offline Saxman

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2010, 09:13:51 AM »
How about this DD, walkons are assigned to small squads and the squad they are assigned to WILL take them, this allows for new guys to learn about FSO and lets small squad have more bodies and perhaps if they like what they see some new members.  I this last frame we had several guys and we were messing around finding them slots till almost launch time, whereas if they were given to a side and the CIC for that side just assigned them to small squads 4-6 we might get more guys and bigger squads??

I know some squads don't want new blood but I bet this would work in the main.

No.

VMF-251 specifically avoids taking in walk-ons and volunteers unless it's someone we know and have flown with before. I don't want an unknown element in my squad that will just turn out to be a liability to us as a unit. I sure as hell don't want that FORCED on me.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Dadsguns

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2010, 10:03:45 AM »
we were not on defense we were a mop up strike package assigned to try and catch the cap on the ground refueling, but since the main strike package and the figther sweep ahead of us was spotted we had no chance of catching the cap on the ground.

Our fighter sweep did not kill any of the cap apparently and only tried to lure them away from the target, which failed and then we were left to fend for outselves I guess since I never saw the fighter sweep return (maybe the cap killed them all??).

All in all the 20 man cap squad did a great job and our plan failed miserably :)

Boxboy, with all due respect, what other changes need to be made when it boils down to your own admission of not executing a plan?   :headscratch:

I trust that CIC's do all they can to ensure fun for all and not to overload a side.  Yet all it takes is for one element of that plan to not be executed properly and it starts to fall apart as was in your case so it seems.  

Better coordination with other squads go a long way in your success.


« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 10:14:06 AM by Dadsguns »


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Offline Chapel

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Re: Setup changes needed???
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2010, 10:32:21 AM »
As the CIC of the Allied forces in frame 3, and as it happens one of the pilots of Rolling Thunder which were designated to defend A32 I have some input on this for you Boxboy....

First of all, I agree with WxMan on this. A good deal of the issue here is Communications. As CIC I spent a good 15+ hrs on my work, and ensured credible forces as dictated by the rules were assigned every defensive and offensive operation. I've seen orders come out that just say "Squad XXX hit field XXX in this plane" and that's it. It's a spreadsheet and no map. I've seen complicated orders sent out with maps, spreadsheets, directions and even some flavor added in. Saxman had a great set of orders a few FSO's back. The point is, someone needs to put in the time to get squads coordinated.

I'm also in a unique position of having been the CO of a smaller 4-6 FSO squad. I was CO of the Haze for quite a while and we found that our experience in the FSO would be enhanced if we joined a bigger squad. Over the course of the next year we went squad shopping and met some outstanding pilots in many squads. We looked at a good many squads, and flew with some for quite a while looking for that perfect Jive Mojo for our group. All the squads we flew with had a great group of guys, but many had different flying styles. We finally settled with the Rolling Thunder a while back and have been happy campers ever since. A big <Salute> to those other squads we flew with. Much respect and gratitude for allowing us a chance to fly with you.

Secondly, Not all CIC's give the small squads the shaft. Again this comes down to how much effort a CIC puts into his orders. I looked at rides flown in previous frames, requests for certain aircraft, and the capabilities of a squad to do the job assigned to them. I know some squads are better off than others at bombing, some better at escorting, etc. And in the case of having smaller squads as flight lead, absolutely I did. Squads build a reputation and by that reputation get known. I know I can count on some squads to do EXACTLY what I tell them. I know other squads are a little more "rouge" if you will. Perfect example, I knew the 68th Lightning Lancers could handle a VERY tough assignment to bomb A127, with only a light escort of their own pilots and they pulled it off brilliantly, if at a cost to themselves. <S> 68th! Flight lead is the same way, I assigned a 4-6 squad flight lead of a larger force, because I knew I could trust that squads judgment. So not everything is cut and dry.

If you want to remain as a small squad, communication is going to be VERY important. Email the squads your assigned with (because you should be assigned at LEAST a 7-10 or more as companions), get in touch with them, and find out their plan. Assign someone to their comms to monitor position and orders. Communicate via text channels. You have to make an effort to stay in formation with them. Coming in piece meal will just get you shot down.

Lastly, FSO is an unknown factor. Sometimes people show up, sometimes they don't. Sometimes you get the dirty bucket for detail, sometimes you don't. What you put into it, is what you'll get out. If you just show up to fly, knowing where you need to go...well that's all your gonna get. Above all, conduct your squad in a manner that reflects you positively. Make that effort regardless of outcome. Even if you all go down screaming and in flames.....you tried your best to accomplish the mission the CIC set to you, and that's the best you can do. No one will fault you for that, and in the end, people will realize that you can handle yourselves, assign you the good duties, and even put you in charge of a flight group.

Hope that helps muchacho!
<S> Sir.
Rolling Thunder