"that" apache video

[bagrat]

well here we go try an take my 2 cents with a grain of salt.

what a mess! im not sure what all the details are but we should remember that our military is like our police force, its not
perfect but what a "wild west" we would live in if not for them. also just because they joined is not neccesarily because they had defending your rights in mind. ive had friends deployed an came back in both marines and army who simply joined because they were adrenaline junkys and others who "just wanted to shoot somebody" an thats straight from the horses mouth. To say someone is ignorant for sharing a negative oppinion on are millitary almost implys that you believe everyone in a uniform is a good person and its simply not true.

i only say this because its slightly irritating to see someone call someone ignorant for insulting those who "fight for our freedom" when in actuality they could care less about your freedoms. Although not to throw the baby out with bathwater, there are still alot of good men fighting with good intentions in mind.

I am thankful to those who serve but darn trying to stop terrorism just seems like sending police to a school to stop the kids who lie. we are fighting an mindset

[froger]

1) At least two men were armed with long rifles, and one appeared to have a grenade launcher mounted; matching the profiles of insurgents.

2) None were wearing uniforms of any sort; matching the profiles of insurgents.

3) They were in a combat area, without coordinating with local coalition forces; matching the profiles of insurgents.

4) Local US forces were pushing into the area on a combat sweep and the photog was on the enemy's side of the line.

5) Ernie Pyle was smart enough to a) wear a uniform, b) coordinate with local US combat forces, and c) never passed through the lines to the enemy's side of No Man's Land.

I would've shot them, too, in order to protect MY side's ground forces.  It wasn't like the gunner could just open a window and shout out "Hey! Have you guys seen any insurgents around here?"

agreed 

loss of life sucks (anytime) but this ain't Disneyland....it's a war zone


just my thoughts...

froger

[Vulcan]

loss of life sucks (anytime) but this ain't Disneyland....it's a war zone

Whether what they did was right or wrong, it's not a war zone. It's a residential neighbourhood in their capital city. It's their home. If you were driving to work one day and came across 2 or 3 people shot and lying wounded near your house, would you stop to lend assistance or just keep going and ignore their pleas for help?

[froger]

Well the place was / appears to be a residential suburb in baghdad. You're assuming the mission was planned, and I doubt the military would openly publish such activities. So you have a 'fog of war'.

The van was a guy taking his kids to school, he came around the corner upon the scene and decided to lend a hand some time after the firing stopped. Now put yourself in his position, you're driving along, you come across a dozen guys dead and mostly unarmed (we are talking 2 guns and 1 potential rpg across 12-15 bodies). A couple of people are wounded but alive. Do you stop and help or do you drive through letting them bleed to death on the road?

IMHO the guy in the van was a hero. And no I do not think the pilots could see them in there, I think wikileaks is wrong in doing their zoom/enhance on the video which those in the fight did not have the luxury or time for.  BTW the kids did survive.

The guy in the van was stupid !!! not a hero, his stupidity cost is measured in the life changing injuries of two children and the death of him and his friend. no kids....maybe you stop to render aid.

[froger]

hahahaha.

"Those two people who pulled up in the white car" referring to the civilians driving through the fire fight:

Soldier 1: "I shot that guy in the white car, 'ran into the building"
Soldier 2: "I f***ing ripped him"

your point ?

[froger]

Whether what they did was right or wrong, it's not a war zone. It's a residential neighbourhood in their capital city. It's their home. If you were driving to work one day and came across 2 or 3 people shot and lying wounded near your house, would you stop to lend assistance or just keep going and ignore their pleas for help?

Let's see, if you had your two kids in the car with you and you just saw a crap load of led come raining down on a crowd of people(Knowing it could happen again ) would you put your kids in the possible line of fire?

as for this not being a war zone it would seem to me that we as a nation have declared war on terrorism and that many years ago we as a nation chose to occupy that country for reasons i do not understand but as far as i can see your so called residential neighborhood looks like a war zone to me.

[Vulcan]

Let's see, if you had your two kids in the car with you and you just saw a crap load of led come raining down on a crowd of people(Knowing it could happen again ) would you put your kids in the possible line of fire?

as for this not being a war zone it would seem to me that we as a nation have declared war on terrorism and that many years ago we as a nation chose to occupy that country for reasons i do not understand but as far as i can see your so called residential neighborhood looks like a war zone to me.

First off the van did not arrive immediately after or during the firing. It arrived some time afterwards. So he most likely had no idea what had happened and may have assumed it was the aftermath of gun fight or a suicide bomb attack. I'd suggest you read all the documentation available, there is a 4 minute break between the chopper ceasing fan and the van arriving on scene.

As for the war on terrorism, well if I remember correctly the USA has suffered attacks on it's home soil. Should it to be treated as a war zone? Are you saying you'd be comfortable with marshall law declared in the USA and the army to patrol your streets with armoured vehicles and live ammunition? For them to setup checkpoints to check your ID and search you? Before you answer how dangerous baghdad looks I suggest you check some online stats for the worst cities in the world for murder per capita

[33Vortex]

See Rule #6

[warhed]

See Rule #6

[warhed]

See Rule #6

Did I miss something there Skuzz?

Had the journalists followed a proper procedure, whether by personal means, or under the supervision of a professional security detail, they would most likely be alive today.  
If you go out in the rain, bring an umbrella.  If you don't want to take an umbrella because it is restricting, don't complain when you get wet.

[33Vortex]

See Rule #2

[Die Hard]

Just an FYI. Wikileaks has a definite agenda. This is taken from the article I'll link.
"the special project URL that WikiLeaks established for it, under the incendiary name of collateralmurder.com."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100406/ts_ynews/ynews_ts1490

Now do you think you are going to get the straight info when the clip is set up under circumstances like that? Are you going to assume the video is total and complete? I sure wouldn't not with an agenda like they are posting it under. I would really like to know who is behind this so called "non profit" organization. Perhaps someone as neutral as code pink or michael moore.

This might answer some of your questions: http://features.techworld.com/security/3212595/wikileaks-project-to-make-iceland-free-information-host/

Apparently an Icelandic Minister of Parliament and "activist", Birgitta Jonsdottir, is one of the volunteers who work for Wikileaks. And according to Wikipedia, "Wikileaks is hosted in Sweden and founded by Julian Assange, an Australian journalist. As of June 2009, the site had over 1,200 registered volunteers[2]  and the advisory board consisted of Assange, Phillip Adams, Wang Dan, CJ Hinke, Ben Laurie, Tashi Namgyal Khamsitsang, Xiao Qiang, Chico Whitaker, and Wang Youcai."

Wikileaks states that its "primary interest is in exposing oppressive regimes in Asia, the former Soviet bloc, Sub-Saharan Africa and the Middle East, but we also expect to be of assistance to people of all regions who wish to reveal unethical behavior in their governments and corporations."

[Die Hard]

See Rule #2

[33Vortex]

See Rule #2

[Die Hard]

See Rule #14