Instantaneous Turn Rate versus Speed

[PJ_Godzilla]

I've noticed an annoying tendency among - it seems like - Corsair pilots. Typically, I'll see this when I'm flying a Spit VIII or IX.

Generally, with an F4U 1v1, it's fairly easy to get on the tail. Staying there is harder when the bogey engages in the following series:

starts a climbing turn
scrubs off a significant amount of speed
rolls into a sharp bank and kicks hard rudder in the same direction - can't tell if flaps are out
noses down
repeats

It seems to me the F4u pilot is here taking advantage of a very high low-speed instantaneous turn rate. I also recall seeing a similar tactic used by an N1K and a P-51.

Questions:

1. am I crazy?
2. Does anyone have any data on instantaneous turn rate (peak) versus speed for AHII types?

Lindy, notably, killed me this way something like 4 times before I got him on a snapshot the last time.

[Stoney]

Its a lot easier to visualize with some film.

[thorsim]

sounds like an stall turn, POH sort of says pony should be touchy when hard rudder and ron inputs are made together as snap rolls are prohibited ...

if it is what i have seen it is annoying as it results in a near 180deg aspect reversal and all of a sudden a tail chase becomes a ho, trouble if you don't pick it up right away ...

[PJ_Godzilla]

sounds like an stall turn, POH sort of says pony should be touchy when hard rudder and ron inputs are made together as snap rolls are prohibited ...

if it is what i have seen it is annoying as it results in a near 180deg aspect reversal and all of a sudden a tail chase becomes a ho, trouble if you don't pick it up right away ...

Usually, it's more gradual than a snap - just a speed-reduced high turn that tends to get the bogey crossing my lof for a possible snapshot. If done right, it can turn into a reversal or transition into a flat scissor. I've seen all three outcomes.

I apologize for no film. I have never filmed myself and probably should start. I'm embarassed to say that I don't yet know how and, further, that the key settings tend a bit different on my primary - a mac (e.g. fn f12 for centering my Trackir as opposed to F12 on a windows box).

If you suspend disbelief for a bit, imagine, when viewed from the top, my Spit's flat turn as a circle, the high-to-low turn of the f4u as rose petals that peak sharply outside my circle and cross my circle as chords - kind of like an old spirograph drawing. Any outcome of this is possible but, a pilot good enough to pull this one off in the worse turner seems to usually win. I should also note that they've usually got to have a little more smash than I to make it work - otherwise they can't get out of my lof initially.

[thorsim]

kind of sounds like a stall turn at the top of a yo yo which is sort of wrong as yo yo is a way of preserving speed and energy without overshooting your enemy ...

but it could end up as that easily if you extend the vertical part of the yo yo to very very slow speeds turning the high yo yo into a stall turn at the top ...

a couple of nice things about defeating that ...

1) when a guy stalls nose high then reverses he is likely committed and therefore telegraphing his flight path for quite a while thereby setting himself up for a very long deflection shot if you can get gunfire going through his projected flight path ...

2) if you can cross his downward flight path going upward, safe from his gun solution (preferably under his wings) then you essentially have entered his vertical fight and as he is going down and you are going up there is a good chance you can achieve a position reversal ...

the specifics of how you do either of those things is dependent on the exact situation but you should bear in mind that you are ...

a) avoiding his gun  solutions as the flight paths approach the cross

b) working for the rear position not the shot ...
(note even the lead deflection shot in #1 will usually leave you above and behind the target a/c)
... if you work for the shot it is likely that a HO will be the result and that is not your best option usually.

this is if i am visualizing your situation correctly ...

+S+

t

[BaldEagl]

It sounds to me like a standard wing-over.  The bogie climbs at whatever angle.  As he reaches the top he drops flaps, kicks rudder and rolls into the turn, lifting one wing while dropping the other.  The result is that he comes back down along almost the same path he took up.

Most American planes and particularily the Naval planes are very good at this.  I use it all the time in the F6F.  P-38's are also really good for this.  The Spitfires... not so much.  They tend to like to follow a more circular course.

Don't just start following the guy up.  Use lag pursuit to maintain E and stay out of the path of his reverse.  If he does get guns on you roll your facing wing toward him to reduce your profile.  WEP on and immel over the top after you pass, then WEP off and you should catch him at the bottom.  You might also need to reduce throttle on the way down to align a shot.  If you have a lot of E you can start the immel then when you reach the top roll over and immel again.  This will set up either a rope as he tries to climb to you or a series of BnZ passes by you which will keep him pinned down without E.

I went off-line and flew one just to give you the picture.  This was done from a full speed level start at a couple thousand feet so, if the speeds were reduced, you can imagine how much tighter this would have been:



Not being satisfied I went and took another.  This one from a 200 mph start.  Note how much tighter this is and that I never fully invert going over the top:



As I said, Spits just don't like to do this.

[Greziz]

I think what is happening is a trick I like to use. I use it when I am being chased going over 350 mph and being caught for instance a high con dove on my six I drag him out but he is gaining. at about 1.5k I climb a bit and deploy 2 notches of flaps thus initiating the f4u's best turn radius I quickly nose down so he has to re adjust his aim quickly by this point he is about 800 ish out I flatten my wing to him and quickly pull into his flight path as he probably didnt lag persuit and went for the shot if he did follow lag I generally just full flat turn or yo yo as needed and initiate some rolling scissor once I am ready. I have this win for me mostly against spits who rely on their turn to win but the 2 notch flapped f4u is a better turner but doesnt gain e so it will win a flat turn but lose the vert game this way. So if the spit resorts to going vert I flatten and scoot away as the f4u is faster than the spit just takes time to build the speed.

[lulu]

If I understood, then the wing-over action requires low speed. So corsair pilot puts some notch of flaps down
to slow the plane quickly preserving altitude too and he gives rudder input to turn around yaw axis the plane.
Probably he gives also pitch down a bit to counter-act flaps boost. It requires timing and proper con distance evaluation.  OR NOT!   

 

[BaldEagl]

If I understood, then the wing-over action requires low speed. So corsair pilot puts some notch of flaps down
to slow the plane quickly preserving altitude too and he gives rudder input to turn around yaw axis the plane.
Probably he gives also pitch down a bit to counter-act flaps boost. It requires timing and proper con distance evaluation.  OR NOT!  

 

Ideally you're at a low enough speed that when you lower the inside wing the rudder input rotates the plane around the inside (lowered) wing tip.  This can be done with or without flaps.

In both screen shots above I was still above the ideal speed but the trail still illustrates the reverse well enough.  In the top screen shot I had one notch of flaps deployed.  In the second I had two notches out.  Starting nearer stall speed, say 100-150 mph indicated with the reverse at 80-90 mph will make this very tight.

[JunkyII]

If a Hog doe what BE is showing in those SSs. And you cant kill him you got something completely wrong to being with like too much E. If i see a plane pull directly vertical in front of me Im gunna be filling him with lead or setting up the second approach before he comes out of that move

[BaldEagl]

If a Hog doe what BE is showing in those SSs. And you cant kill him you got something completely wrong to being with like too much E. If i see a plane pull directly vertical in front of me Im gunna be filling him with lead or setting up the second approach before he comes out of that move

Remember this is where we start:

starts a climbing turn
scrubs off a significant amount of speed
rolls into a sharp bank and kicks hard rudder in the same direction - can't tell if flaps are out
noses down
repeats

Once that sequence begins the Spit has no choice but to continue a flat turn or an Immelman because he can't stay with that reverse.  If he chooses the flat turn then this sequence of reverses is very effective at getting inside a tighter turning planes turn, thus my earlier recomendation to Immel.  Keeping the fight vertical favors the Spit.

By your comment then no one should ever use a vertical move or you'll kill them.  Well, I'd say that totally depends on the starting situation.  In the screen shots above, too far back and I'm coming stright back down at you.  Too close and you can't follow the reverse.

[mtnman]

I apologize for no film. I have never filmed myself and probably should start. I'm embarassed to say that I don't yet know how and, further, that the key settings tend a bit different on my primary - a mac (e.g. fn f12 for centering my Trackir as opposed to F12 on a windows box).

To film (and review) your flights is easy- here's how...

Default to start (and stop) film is Alt-R.  I re-mapped mine to just plain "R".  At any point while playing, just hit Alt-R to start filming.  When it's filming, you'll notice a small red "R" in the upper corner of your screen. When you hit Alt-R again, filming will stop, and the red "R" will be gone...  When you stop filming, you'll be prompted to give it a name, or you can just save it as the number automatically assigned to it.

Now, out of the game, go review your film.  To do that, go to My Computer/C Drive (unless you have the game installed on a different drive...  Look for the Hitch Creations folder, and open it.  In this folder, you'll see the Aces High folder, and inside that, you find a folder named "films"...  Open that.

In this "films" folder you'll see some icons- those are your films.  To watch one, just double click on it, or right-click/open it.  Your film viewer will open.  Click on the "Play" button. 

In order to see your views better, you'll need to adjust them like you do in the game for the different planes.  Use the number pad on the keyboard to look around, use the arrow keys and page up/dn to move your head, and use F10 to save those positions.

Normally, after your views are enabled, you can just click on the "Use recorded views" button, but I don't think that works right if you used TrackIr.

I find it helpful to review films with the "Enable Trails"  and Icons selected as well.

Get that far, and I'll explain how to easily edit them, and post them.

[bozon]

The F4u is trying to cut inside your turning circle and will succeed. Do not let him do that by not making a turning circle. He dumped a lot of E and if you are not pressed for a quick kill, you now have full control of the battle as long as you maintain this advantage. He cannot run away. Immelman is one option but will leave you above him and a not-very-convenient position to follow up.

An option I like is the lag-displacement roll: pull up, but instead of going into an immelman, roll towards the direction he is crossing from - i.e. if he was in a right climbing turn, reversed and now crosses your path from right to left, roll RIGHT. Keep the plane lightly loaded (pull stick) while you roll, a bit like when doing a barrel roll but then stop rolling and pull out to be flying after him. Usually you end up pulling out between 180 and 270 degrees from the original direction (in the example you roll right and end up heading back-left from the original direction).

You maintain your position behind his wing line and out of your turning circle (hence "lag" & "displacement" in the name) and keep you speed higher than his so you immediately start closing in again. If he tries the same move again, he is predictable and you are ready for a snap shot and repeating your move. The important thing is to start the move before you go past him: you can try a snap shot and immediately pull up and roll after him. The time it takes to complete the roll builds the seperation, but you don't want to let him get too far. Adjust the separation by how much you pull up and the radius of the roll - it can be anything from almost aileron roll to a lazy barrel. It is a not a common ACM because it is not very intuitive. You will often confuse your opponent because he will not understand what you are trying to do.

[PJ_Godzilla]

I think what is happening is a trick I like to use. I use it when I am being chased going over 350 mph and being caught for instance a high con dove on my six I drag him out but he is gaining. at about 1.5k I climb a bit and deploy 2 notches of flaps thus initiating the f4u's best turn radius I quickly nose down so he has to re adjust his aim quickly by this point he is about 800 ish out I flatten my wing to him and quickly pull into his flight path as he probably didnt lag persuit and went for the shot if he did follow lag I generally just full flat turn or yo yo as needed and initiate some rolling scissor once I am ready. I have this win for me mostly against spits who rely on their turn to win but the 2 notch flapped f4u is a better turner but doesnt gain e so it will win a flat turn but lose the vert game this way. So if the spit resorts to going vert I flatten and scoot away as the f4u is faster than the spit just takes time to build the speed.

This is more like what I'm seeing - the pulling into my flight path is telling. It's not a wingover. The con typically doesn't pull that high. And, yes, generally, it's after I've dove on the con and have a little smash.

The only difference is that I'll see a similar maneuver repeated after the initial one. He'll, after the first one - if I pull lead - cross my path and I can take a snap at him. Miss, though, and I typically try to follow him around and find myself in lag and facing a repeat. You can see where it ends.

[PJ_Godzilla]

The F4u is trying to cut inside your turning circle and will succeed. Do not let him do that by not making a turning circle. He dumped a lot of E and if you are not pressed for a quick kill, you now have full control of the battle as long as you maintain this advantage. He cannot run away. Immelman is one option but will leave you above him and a not-very-convenient position to follow up.

An option I like is the lag-displacement roll: pull up, but instead of going into an immelman, roll towards the direction he is crossing from - i.e. if he was in a right climbing turn, reversed and now crosses your path from right to left, roll RIGHT. Keep the plane lightly loaded (pull stick) while you roll, a bit like when doing a barrel roll but then stop rolling and pull out to be flying after him. Usually you end up pulling out between 180 and 270 degrees from the original direction (in the example you roll right and end up heading back-left from the original direction).

You maintain your position behind his wing line and out of your turning circle (hence "lag" & "displacement" in the name) and keep you speed higher than his so you immediately start closing in again. If he tries the same move again, he is predictable and you are ready for a snap shot and repeating your move. The important thing is to start the move before you go past him: you can try a snap shot and immediately pull up and roll after him. The time it takes to complete the roll builds the seperation, but you don't want to let him get too far. Adjust the separation by how much you pull up and the radius of the roll - it can be anything from almost aileron roll to a lazy barrel. It is a not a common ACM because it is not very intuitive. You will often confuse your opponent because he will not understand what you are trying to do.

This sounds a lot like a high yoyo and it makes some sense. As he continues his arc in the hori plane, I'm out of plane on a helical trajectory that looks like it ends with me in lag. Actually, that's probably the diff b/w this and  the yoyo. I'll try it. I see this F4U trick commonly enough that it is practicable.

Last night I flew the G14 with gondos (I was feeling brave) only and never got into a Spitter. The first F4U I saw was attempting a rocket run on my base. I was above him and timed my spiral to put me nicely on his 6 with plenty of smash. I don't think he ever saw me. That's one way to avoid the problem altogether.