Western Jesse James and Billy the Kid

[stealth]

What do you think of Jesse James,Robert Ford. What's your opinion about the assassination.
 What do you think happened to Billy the Kid,some people say he was killed. Others say he lived as Billy Robert.
 What are some good western movies involving these characters in general or just any western movie.

[uptown]

Jesse James was never killed.

[RichardDarkwood]

I think Ol Bob Ford got more than what he deserved in the end. Nothing like a point blank high powered rifle shot to your face to make your day!


On the other hand Jesse James was cold blooded killer and the old saying goes, "live by the sword and you will die by the sword".








Todd

[uptown]

Jesse only killed who needed killin'.

[AKKuya]

One thing to note about most of the great villians and heroes of the Old West.  They all were born in the great state of Missouri which I was also born in.  The underlying cause to most of the train robberies and other dastardly deeds were in part to the expansion of the railroad and the aftermath of the destruction fron the Civil War.

In a time where men could choose the easy path of being an outlaw, they were often hunted by other men who switched sides when large sums of money flowed from the government and private industry.  It could be said that all it took was a very large bribe for wanted men to disappear in other parts of the country and live new lives with new identities.

Do I believe that Pat Garret shot Billy the Kid in the back and in the middle of the night?  It's possible and the best way for Garret to actually have a chance on doing that cowardly deed especially after a night of drinking on Kid's part.

Do I believe that the breakdown of the James and Younger gang was due to the celebrity status of Jesse James?  It's possible that some members of the gang felt like they were second banana to JJ.

Most likely will be the cases of photographs of dead outlaws with victorious lawmen standing triumphantly over the dead bodies and the term lawmen in a very loose way with so much side switching will be based soley on the lawmen saying, "That was Bob "Hatchet" Henderson".  The lawlessnes of the time will allow those so called eyewitness testimony to be used for official purposes.

I would rather believe that some outlaws were killed and the rest faded away into time and the actions of what they did lived into legends and tall tales.  This will go into the books just like the disappearance of Amelia Earhart, Flight 17, and the pursuit of D.B. Cooper.

On a side note, Missouri did produce an American President that made the ultimate decision during wartime that fits in good with the game we play here.  Harry S. Truman made the decision for the use of atomic weapons in wartime.  Texans like to say "Don't mess with Texas" but in Missouri we like to say "Show me the Mushroom".

[stealth]

Well in the movie the assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert ford. Jesse James died he put his guns on the couch still in there holster. He said that pictures dusty ford did it from there. You think Jesse James knew it was over for him?

[saggs]

Jesse only killed who needed killin'.

Yea, those many Union soldiers who surrendered to his force and laid down there rifles, only to be lined up and shot in the back, Yea... ... they had it coming.

Oh yes, and all those train conductors, bank tellers and guards, of course they where a menace to society and had to be put down.  





The man was a thief and a cowardly murderer, I don't care what perceived injustice he suffered, or how rough his childhood was, there can be no excuse for his crimes.  It sickens me that some people today seem to idolize him as a hero, and not the evil murdering SOB that he truly was.

And yes, it seems pretty black and white to me that James was killed by Ford, and that Billy was killed by Pat Garret.  The one old west mystery that is a lot more grey is this;

Was Butch Cassidy killed in Bolivia by the Army as Pinkertons claim, or did he escape and return to his ranch in Utah as many of his descendants claim?

[saggs]

One thing to note about most of the great villians and heroes of the Old West.  They all were born in the great state of Missouri which I was also born in.  The underlying cause to most of the train robberies and other dastardly deeds were in part to the expansion of the railroad and the aftermath of the destruction fron the Civil War.

In a time where men could choose the easy path of being an outlaw, they were often hunted by other men who switched sides when large sums of money flowed from the government and private industry.  It could be said that all it took was a very large bribe for wanted men to disappear in other parts of the country and live new lives with new identities.

Do I believe that Pat Garret shot Billy the Kid in the back and in the middle of the night?  It's possible and the best way for Garret to actually have a chance on doing that cowardly deed especially after a night of drinking on Kid's part.

Do I believe that the breakdown of the James and Younger gang was due to the celebrity status of Jesse James?  It's possible that some members of the gang felt like they were second banana to JJ.

Most likely will be the cases of photographs of dead outlaws with victorious lawmen standing triumphantly over the dead bodies and the term lawmen in a very loose way with so much side switching will be based soley on the lawmen saying, "That was Bob "Hatchet" Henderson".  The lawlessnes of the time will allow those so called eyewitness testimony to be used for official purposes.

I would rather believe that some outlaws were killed and the rest faded away into time and the actions of what they did lived into legends and tall tales.  This will go into the books just like the disappearance of Amelia Earhart, Flight 17, and the pursuit of D.B. Cooper.

On a side note, Missouri did produce an American President that made the ultimate decision during wartime that fits in good with the game we play here.  Harry S. Truman made the decision for the use of atomic weapons in wartime.  Texans like to say "Don't mess with Texas" but in Missouri we like to say "Show me the Mushroom".

It's true many of the "Lawmen" of that era where no saints either, look into Bat Masterson's life for example, but that is still no excuse for the criminals.

Oh and I'd wager that D.B. Cooper went splat.

[PFactorDave]

I'm pretty sure that Sandra Bullock didn't kill him...  But she is probably sending some lawyers to take him out...   

[stealth]

Well what about Billy the Kid,now he was more then a murder then Jesse James. Jesse James I suppose you can say to was a murder. In the beginning he had a reason to do that. Nearing the end he became obsessed with power and then really became a murder. I'm not sure but correct me if I'm wrong.

[saggs]

Well what about Billy the Kid,now he was more then a murder then Jesse James. Jesse James I suppose you can say to was a murder. In the beginning he had a reason to do that. Nearing the end he became obsessed with power and then really became a murder. I'm not sure but correct me if I'm wrong.

Soooo.... because he has a reason to murder it was OK 

Every murderer has a reason, even the crazy ones, from "he was cheating with my wife." to "god told me too."  that doesn't excuse it.  JJ started out with a Confederate guerrilla group that took no prisoners, and executed numerous unarmed Union soldiers after they surrendered.  I've never seen this movie you speak of, but it sounds like it glorifies a cold-blooded killer, not the kind of movie I would ever watch.

I don't know as much about William Bonney, but didn't he claim to have killed more then 21 men.  I doubt if that many could be excused as self-defense or the like.  So I'm pretty sure that he was an evil SOB too.  Yet it seems that more people want to make Pat Garret out as the bad guy, heck maybe they were both bad guys IDK.

[uptown]

Yea, those many Union soldiers who surrendered to his force and laid down there rifles, only to be lined up and shot in the back, Yea... ... they had it coming.

Oh yes, and all those train conductors, bank tellers and guards, of course they where a menace to society and had to be put down.  





The man was a thief and a cowardly murderer, I don't care what perceived injustice he suffered, or how rough his childhood was, there can be no excuse for his crimes.  It sickens me that some people today seem to idolize him as a hero, and not the evil murdering SOB that he truly was.

And yes, it seems pretty black and white to me that James was killed by Ford, and that Billy was killed by Pat Garret.  The one old west mystery that is a lot more grey is this;

Was Butch Cassidy killed in Bolivia by the Army as Pinkertons claim, or did he escape and return to his ranch in Utah as many of his descendants claim?

you know nothing about Jesse James. Do some research and turn off the History channel.

[Penguin]

I think Ol Bob Ford got more than what he deserved in the end. Nothing like a point blank high powered rifle shot to your face to make your day!


On the other hand Jesse James was cold blooded killer and the old saying goes, "live by the sword and you will die by the sword".

Mine is if you live by the interstate, you will die by the pickup-truck.

-Penguin








Todd

[stealth]

Saggs seriously. Yes it's very bad to murder I'm not saying it was ok because he had a reason. I'm simply saying he never always was a pure murder.

[saggs]

Saggs seriously. Yes it's very bad to murder I'm not saying it was ok because he had a reason. I'm simply saying he never always was a pure murder.

It was just the "I suppose" part in your post that threw me.  There is no suppose in it, he was a murderer, that's fact not supposition. 

Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning, I struggled a bit in comprehending your post.