Author Topic: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.  (Read 2039 times)

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2010, 03:39:43 PM »
I will take the word of the primary vonR researcher (Carisella) and Brown over any tabloid type publication.

EDIT: Look this is really easy to understand. This type of 'paperback' fiction was very typical following the war. Paperbacks were cheap (about $0.10 per book) and the public was very hungry for tales from the air war. The writer that created that bit of fiction didnt talk to anyone that was actually there and ad-libbed the entire story. Brown never said that.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 03:46:20 PM by Chalenge »
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2010, 03:57:52 PM »
I understand Chalenge...but I was actually referring to Brown...is it not possible that to maintain some semblance of popularity/dignity that he "retracted his statement"?...as easy as it was to write a novel it was just as easy to make claims contrary to what was quoted since there was no way to record the interviewees voice.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2010, 04:09:52 PM »
I think its much more likely that Brown stuck to his previous statements. Originally he said that he had a brief shot at extreme range and later witnessed a red Tripe having crashed. He put in that account and was awarded the kill by the RAF. Note that he never at any time claimed to have killed the Red Baron. He even spoke to the Australian gunnery crews and stated to them that he believed they had gotten the Baron.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2010, 06:01:56 PM »
What part of 'I am certain' do you not understand? Carisella spoke to Brown about that very quote and he said he never gave it.

And what part of the "please elaborate you can't understand?? I asked why you think the way you do and just said "I am certain about it because those words come from an action publication".

Why was it so hard to say: "Carisella spoke to Brown about that very quote and he said he never gave it." ...in the first place???
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Offline curry1

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2010, 06:47:30 PM »
 :salute
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2010, 07:39:53 PM »
And what part of the "please elaborate you can't understand?? I asked why you think the way you do and just said "I am certain about it because those words come from an action publication".

Why was it so hard to say: "Carisella spoke to Brown about that very quote and he said he never gave it." ...in the first place???

Both ways of answering say the same thing.

I guess you dont understand or didnt understand what I was saying when I said 'action publication' (meaning dime novel). Anyone that has looked at the Baron controversy in any depth knows that there has been more fiction written about Brown than about Richthofen. 'He said this' or 'he said that' when in reality he always said the same thing. The reason Brown finally went into 'There is no point in me commenting, as the evidence is already out there" mode is because people would ask and then report what they pleased and not what Brown actually said.

Newspapers today do the same thing.

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Offline ROX

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2010, 07:52:57 PM »
Schweidnitz today is called Wroclaw (Poland). It must have been fascinating to hear how she escaped from behind the iron curtain (which didnt fall until 1990).



Świdnica is the new post-war name given to it by the Polish government after most all German residents had fled before the Russian Army on the Eastern Front near the end of the war.  Wroclaw is a totally different town, but most believe is the city of BIRTH of Manfred and possibly others of the von Richthofen family.

Here are some decent chunks of our conversation:

(She had evidently arrived at the airport at Frankfurt very early like I did and checked her luggage early because her's was the last luggage to come off the conveyer with mine.  She had this HUGE black steamer trunk that HAD to weigh well over 100 pounds and there was NO way a fine lady of her age could be toting it around so I kept advancing it up the line for her--she was very nice about thanking me for doing it.  Turns out the trunk was not only her stuff for a 2 month stay with her daughter's family in Evergreen Park, IL, but choked full of gifts for all her grandkids.)

She spoke no English and I noticed her accent was a tad different than I had heard before, so--to make pleasant conversation, I asked here where she was from.  She seemed to brush it off and said "you would never know where it is, none of the young people know...it's not even a part of Germany anymore."  I asked, "are you from Silesia?"  You should have seen the look on her face! " Why yes, I am!" she said.  I said, "Are you from Schweidnitz?"  Her jaw dropped and she turned all but white.  "Why should you ask such a thing?  Who told you to ask that of me!"  She actually took a stern tone and looked a bit "cheesed off" to say the least.  I was horribly afraid I had offended her in some way.

I started to apologize if I had offended her and she softened her tone and asked again "How do you know of Schweidnitz?"  I tried to explain that that was the place the von Richthofen Estate was...and before I could even get any further she actually cut me off and she asked "What do you know of the family von Richthofen?"  I explained I had done quite a bit of research on the parents and children and started to mention the silver cups Manfred had made to celebrate each air victory until (then she cut me off again) .."until the silver ran out..." she said.  I agreed that that is what I had heard.  She looked me in the eye and just blurted it out..."I am Anna, the gardener."  I didn't quite know what she was saying.  "I am Anna, the gardener for the Family von Richthofen."  I was shocked!  What were the odds?

When I asked her about Manfred, she had this quirky smile on her face when she talked about him (I got the feeling she had some sort of young girl crush on him back then).  She said she was about 17 or so during the closing year or so of WWI.  I said I had heard that I had heard Manfred was more serious and that Lothar was more of a jokester.  "Kwatch!" she said, don't you believe that!" she said.  "Manfred was just as playful."  She then related a story about how she looked forward to times the brothers came home on leave, although she said she usually didn't see them much.  She told me a story about doing some gardening and being so focused on what she was doing did not notice Manfred sneaking up on her.  "He pinched me on the (backside)" she said, almost blushing like a school-girl.  "One didn't think about him being famous, although he most certainly was."

I asked her about how how it was she got out when the Russians came.  "We had heard the Russian "great" guns for some days, and the rumors were they could break through at any time".  She told me that mother von Richthofen had hastily stuffed some items in a car and that they had decided to travel West, specifically towards the American lines, who drove she didn't say.  She said the family specifically offered her to go with them.  They ended up around the Baden-Baden area when the war was over and she had appreciated the "ride" the family had given her.

She didn't say where she lived at the time, but she didn't mention anything about moving away from the Baden-Baden area after that.  She did hint that some of Manfred's WWI war years friends did keep in touch with the family, I think she was hinting at Gen. Karl Bodenschatz, but did not mention him by name.  It was kind of implied.

She flew through customs and I put her bag on a porter's cart who took it from there.  After I had a tad of customs problems (I was carrying an Isreali orange in a lunch packed by my German "mom" who packed for me to eat on the train, and had to surrender it to the customs official who promptly began peeling it and eating it as he walked away when I was cleared).

When I came out of customs she was still waiting there for her daughter's family to pick her up.  I promptly introduced her to my girlfriend (and future wife) and my father who came to pick me up.  My father was courteous but spoke no German and had never heard of von Richthofen.  My girfriend said she was proud to meet her in her limited German then promptly told Anna what her birthday was.  Anna smiled and winked and that was the last I saw of her--off to Evergreen Park, IL to see her daughter and meet her grandchildren, presumably for the very first time.

What are the odds?

I have always been grateful for that 30 minutes stuck at the end of the customs line at O'Hare with Anna.



ROX


Offline lyric1

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2010, 08:07:15 PM »
Very cool ROX. :aok

Offline mbailey

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2010, 08:16:34 PM »
Wow, great story Rox, thanks!!
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2010, 08:25:33 PM »
Facinating ROX, thank you!
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Offline ROX

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2010, 08:50:10 PM »
Actually, I have always considered it the "jackpot" of a slice in time to meet someone who had a direct link to someone I had studied so much about.  There could have been no better luck.



ROX

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2010, 06:23:02 PM »
I believe 'Anna' lied to you Rox.

The groundskeeper in Silesia was a man (mentioned in many letters and affects of the family) and if you have read anything about the Baron you will recall that he got after little Manfred for several destructions of the landscape. It was common to have male employees outside and females inside during Manfreds time. The reverse would be contrary to the thinking of the Aristocrats and especially the Richthofens. Further along it would have been an affront for Manfred to have touched a woman or girl of lower class (at the earlier age yes but he certainly would not be pinching a woman like you described). It was a completely different time and not familiar to anyone of our 'age' at all.

The family moved to western Germany in 1945 while fleeing from the Russians and if I recall correctly (I am still waiting for the family historian to return my email) they moved into the 5th floor of an apartment (no garden). But regardless 'Anna' told you she was working for the family in Manfreds era as the 'gardener' and thats not possible. By the mid-1960s (I believe 1961 for his sister and 1963 for the mother) the Richthofens of his era were all dead except for Bolko who died in 1970. I believe Bolko lived in Wiesbaden in a one level apartment near the cemetary at which all family members are now buried.

Manfred is the one individual I know of who has had four funerals.

Sorry to rain on your parade and connection to history but there it is.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2010, 06:57:56 PM »
The two exceptions of course would be the 'head of servants' which is also known as the 'Butler' in our society and the personal 'batman' (manservant).
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Offline IrishOne

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2010, 07:15:39 PM »
I believe 'Anna' lied to you Rox.

The groundskeeper in Silesia was a man

she said she was 17, maybe her father was the head gardener.  as far as the "proper" way for a man to conduct himself in "different" times, how would u know if he strictly followed this social code?  maybe he liked to have himself a lil squeeze every now and then.   It was certainly taboo for slave owners to sleep with slaves back in a different time, but it sure happened, didn't it
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 07:18:41 PM by IrishOne »
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Today is the 92nd anniversary of the death of the Red Baron.
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2010, 07:21:53 PM »
You live in a different time thats for sure.  :rolleyes:
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