Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene

[FireDrgn]

Maybe I don't have enough vocabulary for this, I am sorry.  I'm only going to argue against the first point for now:

  It can start again, it can stop, it can go at varying paces as well.  Take pesticide resistance, that occurs very quickly due to the fact that the pressure is extreme and fast-acting.

-Penguin

P.S. On a more positive (and less serious) note, the average cup size in women has gone from a 34B to 36C over a few thousand years, just goes to show you, the more the merrier! 

"Evolution only occurs when it must, therefore, if it doesn't need to, it will not." -------------------

--------------Your implying intelligence. Evolution cannot know life or death. It cannot know pressure. It can not know the correct gene to mutate.  It would have too try all possibility's Including all the death possibility's.It cannot know anthing but randomness.

Starting and stopping would have to be random as well.

[MORAY37]

"Evolution only occurs when it must, therefore, if it doesn't need to, it will not." -------------------

--------------Your implying intelligence. Evolution cannot know life or death. It cannot know pressure. It can not know the correct gene to mutate.  It would have too try all possibility's Including all the death possibility's.It cannot know anthing but randomness.

Starting and stopping would have to be random as well.

WRONG.

[Penguin]

"Evolution only occurs when it must, therefore, if it doesn't need to, it will not." -------------------

--------------Your implying intelligence. Evolution cannot know life or death. It cannot know pressure. It can not know the correct gene to mutate.  It would have too try all possibility's Including all the death possibility's.It cannot know anthing but randomness.

Starting and stopping would have to be random as well.

WRONG.

In a word: owned.

-Penguin

[Wildcat1]

i have to take Gyrene's side on this one........

the big bang theory and the theory of evolution are just that: theories.

is that to say all of science is based off of theories? because it is. what if everything we know about the universe is wrong, because the scientists screwed up their theories?

[Penguin]

i have to take Gyrene's side on this one........

the big bang theory and the theory of evolution are just that: theories.

is that to say all of science is based off of theories? because it is. what if everything we know about the universe is wrong, because the scientists screwed up their theories?

Theory in everyday speech and theory in science are two different words.

Theory in everyday speech is a guess, a hypothesis.

Theory in science is an explaination of observations and laws, which puts it all in the big picture for us.

And what if your particular explaination is wrong? We could all be wrong, and some other thing could have happened to make the universe.  Richard Dawkins makes a good joke on this as well; "Well what if it's the Juju at the Bottom of the Sea?"

You see, you make an argument from fear of being wrong, but your position is much more shaky (unless of course you take the position of "I don't know and I don't care", in which case you can't be right or wrong, logically).

-Penguin

[Sonicblu]

WRONG.

Im curious what is WRONG?

Is it intellegent or not?

How does it know when to evolve.

How do you know this? Where is the science? or evidence?

[Angus]

I have to read through all the stuff Sonicblu and Bozon posted...then compile my responses but I wanted to hit you first. 

No offense sir but...LOL...the word is mutation...not mutilation. If you were mutilating the cattle, you would not be able to breed them very effectively due to the high risk of mortality, and those butterflies would cease to exist unless they could adapt to being mutilated.

Just wanted to point that out.

Awww, spelling! Mutation, like in "mutant" it is.
Anyway, a famous example of a harmless mutation is the musculature of the finest beef cattle. Basically they have so much muscle on their hind quarters to be born normally. So, there we humans are altering the species, except not quite the way darwin's theory would...

[MORAY37]

Im curious what is WRONG?

Is it intellegent or not?

How does it know when to evolve.

How do you know this? Where is the science? or evidence?

Evolution is not "intelligent".  The genetic code does not know what exact way to configure itself to be best adapted to current parameters.  Current parameters put selective pressure upon an species, and trait adaptation is built into that.  A certain percentage of that species will ALWAYS be better equipped for the environment they live in, by simple genetic drift.  Exterior pressure selects these genotypic and phenotypic traits as superior.  Superior members of any species will carry their bloodlines with higher reproductive success, as nearly all species (besides our own) select a mate based solely upon genetic fitness.  Traits therefore move through any population in this way.

Saying there is no pressure or selection is complete bunk.  It is the cornerstone of the science.

[FireDrgn]

Never said that.!!!!!  I said  Evolution can not know pressure. To know would imply intelligence.


Language is a representational system  ie.(math)   Penguin implied knowledge which does imply  intelligence.   He represented science with language... The way he did it  implies intelligence.   If something is not intelegant it MUST me random.   The answer  must be one that has an explanation that includes randomness.   Or it is the wrong conclusion.\


Penguin  how do you feel the need to personally attack me.   This discussion is about science not about me.
Moray replied to something other than what I did say. 

<S>

[FireDrgn]

Theory in everyday speech and theory in science are two different words.

Theory in everyday speech is a guess, a hypothesis.

Theory in science is an explaination of observations and laws, which puts it all in the big picture for us.

And what if your particular explaination is wrong? We could all be wrong, and some other thing could have happened to make the universe.  Richard Dawkins makes a good joke on this as well; "Well what if it's the Juju at the Bottom of the Sea?"

You see, you make an argument from fear of being wrong, but your position is much more shaky (unless of course you take the position of "I don't know and I don't care", in which case you can't be right or wrong, logically).

-Penguin

How do you geta theory with out a hypothesis  first?

[Penguin]

How do you geta theory with out a hypothesis  first?

You don't, a theory is a hypothesis, usually more of a group of hypotheses, that have been proven to explain a broad range of observations.

-Penguin

[FireDrgn]

YOu have no idea what your talking about!!!!  Do you know what a contradiction is?  How are theory in every dayspeech and theory in science two differant words?  You must use laungage (speech is the auditory of lauguage)   You just used eveyday "speech".....


A Group would have to come first...

I dont have time for the rest  maybe later//

[Sonicblu]

Evolution is not "intelligent".  The genetic code does not know what exact way to configure itself to be best adapted to current parameters.  Current parameters put selective pressure upon an species, and trait adaptation is built into that.  A certain percentage of that species will ALWAYS be better equipped for the environment they live in, by simple genetic drift.  Exterior pressure selects these genotypic and phenotypic traits as superior.  Superior members of any species will carry their bloodlines with higher reproductive success, as nearly all species (besides our own) select a mate based solely upon genetic fitness.  Traits therefore move through any population in this way.

Saying there is no pressure or selection is complete bunk.  It is the cornerstone of the science.

How are you using the word Evolution in this statement? It appears that we are talking about adaptation within a species. Or to put it another way evolutin within a species. Is this correct?

[Simba]

"Absolute truths are the basis for science."

There are no absolute truths in science, just probabilities. Good science is a methodology for investigation, no more, no less. Observe, measure, collate and test the resulting data, hypothesize, test the hypothesis, publish the results - and criticize openly as and if necessary.

 

[RTHolmes]

Theory in everyday speech and theory in science are two different words.

Theory in everyday speech is a guess, a hypothesis.

Theory in science is an explaination of observations and laws, which puts it all in the big picture for us.

same word, same meaning.

YOu have no idea what your talking about!!!!

on this point I have to agree. Penguin try using the "Preview" button, then read through it a few times before you hit the "Post" button...