Reviewing the "HO"

[mechanic]

Alot of very complex outlooks on the game developing here. Personally I prefer not to put myself in a box when playing these games. Some day's I'll take a single B26 and just go out looking to HO fighters. Other times I'll dweeb a little here, dweeb alittle there. Other times I'll be having some awesome fights with someone and not shooting at all just to see who augers first. There are so many ways to play AcesHigh I think you're all mad to make so many rules for yourselves.   

[Stones]

^ what he just said.  

It's one hell of a game. I try and mix it up a little.
Can spend hours learning where and how to execute ACM's and doing stuff to improve the ol' SA but sometimes it's just fun to be damn reckless and dogfight with a Boston.

No Ho'n tho' 

[The Fugitive]

^ what he just said.  

It's one hell of a game. I try and mix it up a little.
Can spend hours learning where and how to execute ACM's and doing stuff to improve the ol' SA but sometimes it's just fun to be damn reckless and dogfight with a Boston.

No Ho'n tho' 

I think this is the main point of the thread, it's a game, lets have fun.

The information about the HO is to point to those players who seem to keep ending up in that position, that there are far better ways to "have fun" than to just HO everything in site.

[TequilaChaser]

I have contemplated posting the below image for a bit, but people have their "opinions" of what is considered a HEAD ON shot...... well, lets look at the below image from the US's 1943 Army Air Force Training command Fighter gunnery Manual...

and see what they thought back then



hope this clears things up ( it probably will not )

and let everyone still have their personal opinion on the matter, shall we     ( special Thanks to Baumer  )

[RTHolmes]

nice  

maybe we should refer to the pointless50/50 shoot until someone blows up or both collide shot as a "joust"

[Buck]

Things can be solved quite easily if you don't get picky with everything. Its been stated, (Its a game), right ! so ? that means you can, HO, ram, dogfight, turn fight, strafe, Boom and Zoom and so on...

No problem, suck it all up, and re-up......

If you can't handle a HO, BnZing or anthing else, then you can't handle dogfighting either...

[RTHolmes]

indeed

[mtnman]

I have contemplated posting the below image for a bit, but people have their "opinions" of what is considered a HEAD ON shot...... well, lets look at the below image from the US's 1943 Army Air Force Training command Fighter gunnery Manual...

and see what they thought back then

(Image removed from quote.)

hope this clears things up ( it probably will not )

and let everyone still have their personal opinion on the matter, shall we     ( special Thanks to Baumer  )

I like it!  I sure makes "defining" it easier.  And a lot more broad than is generally accepted in AH.  I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that many people here have been HOing, when they think they've been taking what they see as "legitimate" FQ shots, hehe!

The thing I can't see from that diagram though...  Which directions are you not allowed to shoot from?

[dtango]

Silly dweebs.  Don't you know that it's a Head-On when someone shoots you in the face but a Front Quarter shot when you shoot someone else in the face??   

Tango

[TequilaChaser]

The thing I can't see from that diagram though...  Which directions are you not allowed to shoot from?

I am under the thought of...... A person can shoot from any direction they want, the only downside being the percentage of hitting your target, or even colliding... which regardless if one is coming from any angle a collision can happen.... just the same as getting hits with their guns.....

yes sir, I put this pic of a page up to "define" what was considered a Head On Attack.......


what sparks my memory banks are the 30 degree front quarter cones, verses the 60 degree Head On Cone...... I was taught and have taught since somewhere around 95' that it was a 30 degree angle off nose my whole "online Combat Flight Sim" life. guess that adds up to the total of 60 degrees as shown in the diagram 
.
.
.
- Is a Head On Shot a Good First Choice?     No it is not!

- Can someone take a head On shot as a First Choice?    they surely can, but I would not teach  or advise them to do so, unless the conditions called for it......

Silly dweebs.  Don't you know that it's a Head-On when someone shoots you in the face but a Front Quarter shot when you shoot someone else in the face??   

Tango

   so everyone claims, dtango 

[THRASH99]

This is the type of topic that constantly recycles in game and on the BBS. One of the original goals of "DFC" was/is to promote "old school" air combat which is a preference for a certain code of conduct that encourages 1 on 1 or small melee type combat vs a single player being ganged or a large group (normally known as a horde) overwhelming a very small group. This is a repost of an internal thread Vudak fired back up where some of the guys/gals were trying to formulate a statement that tries to put the HO in perspective...

If you have played Aces High for any length of time, you have probably heard someone complain about a “HO.”  In case you are confused by the term, these people are not simply being misogynistic.  Instead, they are complaining about someone pressing for a head-on attack.

A head-on attack occurs when two aircraft each have a firing solution on the other at the exact same time.  This differs from a front-quarter shot where one aircraft can fire towards the front of its opponent’s aircraft, but its opponent cannot return fire.  Though both are likely to cause a volatile reaction from your recently dispatched opponent, both can also be useful tools for your arsenal.  The trick is recognizing that a saw is not always the best hammer.  The aim of this document is to make you aware of the possible detriments of a head-on attack, so that you can make an informed decision as to whether or not to press for one in your future engagements.

Why do you often here that a "HO" is not a high % proposition. A couple of factors come into play.

A) The Numbers

First things first, let’s look at some numbers.  Many people claim a HO attack gives you a 50/50 chance of survival.  We think that is optimistic.  Every time you and an opponent line up for a head-on attack, one of the following outcomes is possible:

1.   You die.
2.   Your opponent dies.
3.   You both die.
4.   Neither dies.

That’s 50/50, right?  Well, that depends on your definition of “chance for survival.”  We tend to think of it in terms of surviving your entire sortie, and not just that one particular encounter.  That brings us to another possibility, and one that is constantly available, even if you “win” the HO and fly off alive:

5.   You take damage.

That damage could be to a vital control like a flap, elevator, or rudder.  It might be a leak of necessary liquids like oil, fuel, or radiator fluid.  While there’s a chance you’ll get away with only a few guns destroyed that you’ll want later, or perhaps several tiny bullet holes weakening your wing to the point where one more will rip it right off, there’s also a chance that you’ll suffer a pilot wound, and immediately begin to bleed out.

The bottom line is damage is bad.  Damage reduces your chance of survival.  You want to avoid damage when possible.  Deliberately placing your aircraft right in front of incoming gunfire (read: damage) is not usually in your best interest.  It is most certainly not a 50/50 chance of survival.

B) Tactical Considerations

By its very nature a "HO" freezes your nose on the enemy, very often this can create a significant disadvantage. The better your opponent the more likely he'll be to manipulate your shot attempt to his advantage. This can tend to lead to an increasing level of frustration and an escalation of a tendency to "HO" since you have less and less confidence in your ability to "dogfight". Dogfighting is a frustratingly hard aspect of air combat and takes time, practice and a firm understanding of ACM cause and effect. Most good dog fighters will tell you that the merge is the single most important aspect of the fight and that "locking the nose" on the enemy is about the worst thing you can do.

The flip side is that dogfighting offers the most fun and excitement in the game. By focusing on learning proper "merge tactics" you'll increase your longterm enjoyment and actually land more kills and have more fun while your still learning. It's important to understand that the merge is defined as the 1st time the two combatants cross paths. Once the planes have joined the fight many possibilities exist on both sides. Generally speaking the antagonists have two choices. Work for the 1st shot or try and retain enough energy to gain the upper hand. Very often the 2nd crossing or "re-merge" determines the course of the fight. If both players are aggressive and try and get around 1st then the plane that wins is much like the gunfighter that clears leather 1st...in effect he won the draw. That does not automatically win the fight since a hasty or poorly aimed shot wont finish the opponent. If one player is looking to keep as much E as possible then he needs to guard against and defend against a possible shot. This 3D chess match is the heart of the "dog fight" and provides countless opportunities and variations.

While players may mutually agree to a greater restriction in most brackets the initial merge is flown "guns cold" but any shot is fair game after that. As it relates to combat in the main arena's the simple reality is that once you learn to avoid an opponents "HO" and use his limited tactics to your advantage you'll not only be in a position to win more fights but also to defend a bad position and then "reset the fight" on more even terms. In just a few hours with a trainer or DFC member you can greatly increase both your skill level (specific to "dogfighting") and enjoyment of the game overall. Don't let others trap you into a "50/50" bet when you can learn to do much much better.

By circumstance I've got a film that highlights some of the realities nicely...
http://beachheadcrm.info/snaphook/The%20Joust.ahf

This is type of fight that constantly keeps me trying to find better ways to approach things. Here is a circumstance where I've worked my way back to "even" from being more or less bounced. I don't want to joust but if I break and evade I'm giving up what little E I have and creating an angles advantage for him in the vertical (you can see how aggressively he flew the cutbacks earlier in the fight). I'm really hoping to bluff him off me while getting everything I can by turning in the vertical vs "flat". In effect in my mind he's where I need to be going, end result is as pure a midfight "HO" as you can get since we literally run into each other.

One of the few times I've stepped up to the craps table in a 1 on 1 fight...."7 out line away"

The only reason that this is done in AH is because most people don't want to fight, mostly the noobs who come in the game. This is only a simulation, but in real life no one would ho because their life was at stake and they didn't want to die. Some actual pilots that served may have tried to ho to get out a fast situation, but payed a high price. Really in my opinion, if you have a descent shot, then take it, but if it's going get you mad if you try to ho back and lose, that's your decision, not anyone else's. Another thing to add, why ruin a fight with a ho? It just makes you look bad and gets people mad at you(which always results in pms). The game is meant to have fun, have good fights and actually make it worth it. But when people have to do it constantly, that's how it starts to make other people mad and do it 24/7 to other people and it just proves that they can't deal with losing in a 1v1 or can't go through a fight without having to HO. 

[Dawger]

The only reason that this is done in AH is because most people don't want to fight, mostly the noobs who come in the game. This is only a simulation, but in real life no one would ho because their life was at stake and they didn't want to die. Some actual pilots that served may have tried to ho to get out a fast situation, but payed a high price. Really in my opinion, if you have a descent shot, then take it, but if it's going get you mad if you try to ho back and lose, that's your decision, not anyone else's. Another thing to add, why ruin a fight with a ho? It just makes you look bad and gets people mad at you(which always results in pms). The game is meant to have fun, have good fights and actually make it worth it. But when people have to do it constantly, that's how it starts to make other people mad and do it 24/7 to other people and it just proves that they can't deal with losing in a 1v1 or can't go through a fight without having to HO. 

I would suggest you spend some time learning to avoid the other guy's guns. Once you do that the "HO" ceases to be something that might cause anger and instead becomes something you welcome as an opportunity to grab angles away from the other guy.


Fly to the elbow. It really is simple. If you get on or inside the other guy's turn circle it is impossible for him to get guns on you.

As an example, the classic multiple HO pass fight usually involves a guy in a decent turning aircraft with a big gun package. He only wants a snapshot guns pass. He will usually extend just enough to yank on the stick hard enough to flip around and get guns on you. The classic mistake in this situation is to fly pure pursuit (velocity vector on the bandit). This solves his geometry problem and guarantees him a gunshot if he has enough turning room. It is easy enough to deny the shot. Instead of flying pure pursuit, fly to the elbow. Fly lag pursuit. Put the velocity vector where he was, not where he is. The idea is to get on or inside his turn circle before he gets the nose around.

If the situation is one where a level bandit went nose high to pitch back to you, fly to the spot where he went nose high before you go nose high to pursue him. This is a good general rule for lag pursuit. Fly to the spot where he initiated his maneuver before you initiate yours. This will keep you in lag, on his turn circle and out of his attempt to flip around for a front quarter snapshot. Of course there are a many other considerations.

If you cannot get on his turn circle before he can bring his nose around this particular method isn't going to work. If the bandit extends way out before flipping just show him your tail. Another classic mistake is to chase a high extending bandit. Never climb into a fight. Show him your tail. If he wants you make him come get you. The easiest way to equalize energy state is to make the bandit dive to your altitude and chase you. Once he is at your altitude it only takes a few seconds before all of his energy advantage is frittered away and you can reverse back into the fight on equal energy terms.

[Karnak]

If I am in a multiple on one fight in an aircraft that doesn't have a performance edge, my highest priority is to get the numbers more even and, given my usual ride, the HO is often the best tool in that situation.

I see people saying that you shouldn't go for the HO even then in an attempt to draw the fight out in order to learn, but I am skeptical of how much there is for me to learn about defensive maneuvers in a twin engined "heavy" fighter when under attack by multiple enemies.  One on one, maybe even two on one, I can agree with that, but more than that and my survival becomes largely dependent on my attackers inadequacy.

[ink]

If I am in a multiple on one fight in an aircraft that doesn't have a performance edge, my highest priority is to get the numbers more even and, given my usual ride, the HO is often the best tool in that situation.

I see people saying that you shouldn't go for the HO even then in an attempt to draw the fight out in order to learn, but I am skeptical of how much there is for me to learn about defensive maneuvers in a twin engined "heavy" fighter when under attack by multiple enemies.  One on one, maybe even two on one, I can agree with that, but more than that and my survival becomes largely dependent on my attackers inadequacy.

like ya say, multi con attacking you, leaves it open I think for anything, and if they whine about a HO....well....wouldnt have happened if they were not in the "Horde/gang"

[Mongoose]

- Is a Head On Shot a Good First Choice?     No it is not!

- Can someone take a head On shot as a First Choice?    they surely can, but I would not teach  or advise them to do so, unless the conditions called for it......

  I think you have said it the best.   

  On a side note:  I have ended up making a Head On shot a couple of times recently.  Due to the simple fact that I didn't realize the bandit was turning towards me until too late.  I think I need a better video card.