Author Topic: Great FSO  (Read 1600 times)

Offline AKP

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Re: Great FSO
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2010, 11:46:47 AM »
Wd40 got their Arses handed to them again by super high Brewsters'. :joystick:  However, we understand  that it goes that way sometimes.  I will bandage my little children up, wash them, then bring them back for the next one...
Salute to The Satans Playmates. We have enjoyed your company, and communication through frames 2 and 3. 
 :salute To all cic's and Fso Staff..   :cheers:

Right back at ya TUK... you and your squaddies are  :aok

***G3-MF***

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Great FSO
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2010, 11:56:28 AM »
BigRat  :salute I did read your first post, repeatedly to try and get some idea of what your primary concern was...and your subsequent posts reinforced what I originally thought. Reading your words I see "lopsided kill ratio equals inbalance"...hence my counter of b.s. Yes I agree it wasn't a "Great FSO", but then in the reality within each persons mind, few are when you're on the side that gets slaughtered in all frames. Without going overboard on the numbers for each side and opening a different can of worms, it was as balanced as it could get.

The A6M2 is no match for the Finnish Brewster and only experienced players have a chance 1v1...which I'm guessing as a trainer you know...but with FSO time constraints and assignments even experience isn't much help when you're in a crowd of more maneuverable planes. The Brewster and Hurricane should have been limited in numbers but that's just my opinion.



And, if you think there is any need for someone to teach people how to put any aircraft in AH into an unrecoverable flat spin, or how to rip the wings off any plane I'll help out in the TA.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline Stoney

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Re: Great FSO
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2010, 11:58:51 AM »
Just to let you know about how I approached the side-balancing:

For the first frame, the reason it wound up like it did was (1) I thought the qualitative superiority of the Zeke over the Hurri I, P-40B, I-16, and Brewster would make a much larger difference and (2) the min/max from side assignments foretold a small numerical advantage for the Axis.  As it turned out, the Axis basically had a minimum participation level turnout, and that made the sides more 50/50.  On top of that, the Axis flew about 20 more Vals that frame than they had to, and that was 20 Zekes they didn't have.  I hadn't planned on that.

Second frame, the numbers turned out very close to what I thought they would be after the adjustment.  The Axis had about 40 more pilots than the Allies, at about 225 to 185.  Considering the min numbers of Vals and B-25s that were used, that meant the Axis should have had about 150 fighters to the Allies 185.  That, at the time, did not seem imbalanced to me at all.  Allied CIC also did a good job of recognizing the high-payoff potential of the strat target, and had a larger force defending it than the other objectives.  For the most part, the Axis attack forces were fairly balanced, so there was a numerical disadvantage for the Axis over Rangoon.  To Nef's credit, he put together some hasty orders that allowed us to fly the frame.  Knowing him, had he more time, I'm sure his plan would have anticipated that as well.

Third frame, the assignments were the same, but this time, the Axis used more Vals than required again, which cut into the number of available fighters for the Axis.

Both frame 1 and frame 3, we had first-time CICs, who did a good job on the organizational level of the orders, but perhaps could have used more effective tactics and task-organization.  We've all been new CICs before, and the learning curve is always steep.  I'm sure they've learned a few things that they may choose to do differently next time.

When I originally put this setup together, I thought about how I would approach the objectives if I had been the Axis CIC.  The B-25's are suited for the strat targets at Rangoon, so my 12 formations would have been assigned the strat target each frame.  Given there were 4 other objectives, I would have used ~15 Vals per target, and everything else would have been escorts.  In my opinion, 150 Zekes should be competitive with 180 or so of the early allied aircraft.  Perhaps it should have been a 1:1 ratio of Axis to Allied fighters.  But, that would have made the numbers break out to 60% Japanese players to 40% Allied players and I would have never thought we would need such a disparity to make things equitable.

Anyway, for those that got pummeled each frame, sorry.  For those that enjoyed it, good.  Regardless, what is so apparent to the players after the results of a frame are posted is not so easily foreseen by those of us that put these events together.  If your crystal ball is calibrated better than mine, Daddog might be able to use you in the future.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

HiTech

Offline shegotya

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Re: Great FSO
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2010, 12:24:25 PM »
Both frame 1 and frame 3, we had first-time CICs, who did a good job on the organizational level of the orders, but perhaps could have used more effective tactics and task-organization.  

Thanks and yes, definite a learning experience as I am sure they all are when it comes to what you do and what you could have done. I again want to thank you for your help and look forward to bothering you in the future for more!  :D


Here is one thing not mentioned in the posts I have read for this FSO and at least the last few months for sure ...

In addition to organization, effective tactics, task-organization and all the other "expected" jobs of the CiC there was for me the unexpected job of ...

Telling squads where to go at "go time"
&
The close to the end redirects (I see the need for this. I was just unaware it happens)

I did not expect in addition to what I knew I had to do (regardless of turn out and if it was planned and executed well) I felt there was alot of my time typing the very orders I spent the time typing out and sending prior to the event. Believe me I have signed on quite a few Friday nights not knowing what the heck we were doing but, I asked my CO not the CiC who I imagined was very busy and now that I had my turn at it for the first time I was right .. they are very busy! LOL I can see it being less and less "busy" as experience weighs in but, the chain of command is there for a reason.

Big  :salute to CiC's past and future! It is work but, comes with great reward to watch the execution of your plan good or bad IMO.


Offline TUK

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Re: Great FSO
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2010, 12:34:50 PM »
That  problem happens SGY. Its the Co's, that are dropping the ball when that happens. If they recieve the orders they should desperse them... :salute
CO WD40 (FSO)
Death From Above (DFA) - Main Arena




Offline shegotya

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Re: Great FSO
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2010, 12:51:42 PM »
That  problem happens SGY. Its the Co's, that are dropping the ball when that happens. If they recieve the orders they should desperse them... :salute


I am sure you are 100% accurate but, in addition, there are some CO's on the ball every week and the squad doesn't read them. I am just saying ask the CO or squad what is up for the night if you don't know and leave the organization, effective tactics, task-organization and all the other "expected" jobs of the CiC for the CiC.

Not trying to find out who's dropping balls around here just wanted to point out chain of command.

Truth is I just like to hear myself talk so there it is!  :D

Offline Big Rat

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Re: Great FSO
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2010, 01:59:52 PM »
BigRat  :salute I did read your first post, repeatedly to try and get some idea of what your primary concern was...and your subsequent posts reinforced what I originally thought. Reading your words I see "lopsided kill ratio equals inbalance"...hence my counter of b.s. Yes I agree it wasn't a "Great FSO", but then in the reality within each persons mind, few are when you're on the side that gets slaughtered in all frames. Without going overboard on the numbers for each side and opening a different can of worms, it was as balanced as it could get.

The A6M2 is no match for the Finnish Brewster and only experienced players have a chance 1v1...which I'm guessing as a trainer you know...but with FSO time constraints and assignments even experience isn't much help when you're in a crowd of more maneuverable planes. The Brewster and Hurricane should have been limited in numbers but that's just my opinion.


gyrene81,

Good post and I agree with ya :aok  No hard feelings from me :D.  

"And, if you think there is any need for someone to teach people how to put any aircraft in AH into an unrecoverable flat spin, or how to rip the wings off any plane I'll help out in the TA."  

I haven't had a request for that yet :rofl, but If you'd like to stop in the TA sometime around 9 central during the week, feel free to introduce yourself.  That way I will know you :aok

 :salute
BigRat
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 02:03:27 PM by Big Rat »
When you think the fight might be going bad, it already has.
Becoming one with the Hog, is to become one with Greatness, VF-17 XO & training officer BigRat

Offline snakeplissken

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Re: Great FSO
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2010, 02:25:28 PM »
<S> 68Lurch, Tracerx and Stoney.  I thought it was a great FSO considering the early war Planes.   :airplane:  The CM's did a great job.  I think Stoney's reply is perfect.  Almost nothing goes unplanned in FSO. The CM's work months in advance to set up the fights on Friday nights.  They agonize over the smallest details.  I can't post from our private page but I have seen pages of debate over plane sets, sky color and wind settings.  BTW have you ever compared our maps to the actual combat zones?  They are amazing. (except for the whole palm tree in Europe thing and we are working on that).  And the CM's devote their time and effort to make it all come together.  I am bias and will probably get in trouble for this but, personally, I think FSO is the best part of the game.  The Unforgiven has two or three people that just play the game for FSO.   :salute  For me, I was surprised at how well the Brewster performs against the Zero.  Add in the armour plating and the little beast takes alot of damage.  Tuk, that was the Unforgiven in the Brewsters.... And while we did slice into you, the NOE bombers with you made it to target and inflicted a great deal of damage.  All of which I suspect was your mission.  I thought the CIC's did a great job of mission planning.  I echo the first comment, for an early war FSO, This was alot of fun!   :aok
The Unforgiven motto: Quid posset ire iniuriam

Offline Kuhn

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Re: Great FSO
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2010, 02:34:14 PM »
325th Checkertails

Offline saltee

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Re: Great FSO
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2010, 02:58:39 PM »
Insert size 12 foot into mouth...

Unfortunately, the major variable that is hardest to compensate for are the idiosyncrasies of human nature.  There are those that go the extra mile for all, those that follow as expected and a handful that need to be constantly spoon-fed. 

Being an old squid, I'm in complete agreement with the concept of the chain-of-command.  CO's should be held responsible for the actions of their squadmates.  If someone is being a royal pita, especially during a Special Event, they should be the ones to drop the hammer on that particular individual to get them in line with the rules and regs.  Granted, the fine line here is that we pay to be here, not vice versa.  However, if someone's actions are constantly to the detriment of others, I say hand them a squadron less-than-honorable discharge and send them packing.  As the FSO's are squad events, maybe they would take the hint and clean up their act with their next squadron.

IMHO, the same applies to those that jump the C-O-C and hassle those trying to run an op.  Just because someone does it, that doesn't mean that one has to acknowledge their existence on planet Earth.  Ignore them.  If they have more than 2 active brain cells, they should be able to figure out that they need to seek info from a more appropriate level, within their own C-O-C.  "A lack of planning (initiative) on your part doesn't automatically constitute an emergency on my part".

The bottom line here is that we're not playing Monopoly, cards, or checkers.  This is a military simulation.  To me, the MA's are arcade-oriented.  It's the SE's that are the meat and potatoes for those of us seeking recreations of historical events.  As such, I feel we should abide, in essence, to the well established rules and regs of the real-world military. 

   

Offline HighTone

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Re: Great FSO
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2010, 03:34:07 PM »
As an axis pilot this FSO was tough. Still had fun, but it was tough. That is one of the reasons I like the FSO's. I don't want to be on the winning/superior side every time.

Only two things I would say about it are:

1. Wish there weren't as many Brewsters out there. Seemed to have the most trouble with them. Maybe limit them a little more next time?

2. IMO this FSO highlights the need for the Betty bomber and to a less degree the Ki-43.


FSO rock and I will see ya next month  :salute

LCA Special Events CO     LCA ~Tainan Kokutai~       
www.lcasquadron.org      Thanks for the Oscar HTC

Offline FiLtH

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Re: Great FSO
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2010, 10:19:43 PM »
 Ok ok..PERSONALLY...I had a GREAT FSO!

     I was just glad we had planes fighting on the deck, actually FIGHTing eachother, few able to run away. Its rare in AH to see that. I bet more than a couple on both sides were thinking "If I only had my 51!"

~AoM~