Fourth Tri-Annual Dueling Bracket & Results

[katanaso]

BE: I agree with what you're saying in that scenario.  I wasn't thinking of immelmans though, because yes, the plane coming up from underneath will have an advantage for several reasons, some that you've stated.

It was always pretty easy to use a higher cons greater E state against him if he was diving past me in a merge.  Is that what you're referring to in the type of nose up/nose down merge you mentioned?

What I typed didn't express what I was thinking, but I was thinking the higher plane dives down towards the merge and does something other than an straight immelman.

[WMLute]

BE: I agree with what you're saying in that scenario.  I wasn't thinking of immelmans though, because yes, the plane coming up from underneath will have an advantage for several reasons, some that you've stated.

It was always pretty easy to use a higher cons greater E state against him if he was diving past me in a merge.  Is that what you're referring to in the type of nose up/nose down merge you mentioned?

What I typed didn't express what I was thinking, but I was thinking the higher plane dives down towards the merge and does something other than an straight immelman.

Try that w/ someone that knows what they are doing.

What I don't think you are understanding is that you are trading position for a slight E advantage.

The E advantage we are talking about is (usually) not enough to put you out of your opponents gun range.

In a dissimilar plane match up like you find in the LW you can do what you are talking about especially if you are flying to your planes strengths.

In a duel it'll get you dead more times than not.


BTW Kudos to TJ.

Great flying both of you.

[katanaso]

I understand Lute, but I don't think I'm conveying my thoughts well here. 

Can you explain what you're envisioning from my posts, so I can better state what I mean?  What I'm missing is how I'm trying to be out of gun range - does it sound like I'm talking about using the alt to fight from the top down? 

Thanks.

mir

Try that w/ someone that knows what they are doing.

What I don't think you are understanding is that you are trading position for a slight E advantage.

The E advantage we are talking about is (usually) not enough to put you out of your opponents gun range.

In a dissimilar plane match up like you find in the LW you can do what you are talking about especially if you are flying to your planes strengths.

In a duel it'll get you dead more times than not.


BTW Kudos to TJ.

Great flying both of you.

[WMLute]

From what I am to understand, you are talking about not diving down w/ your opponent, keeping your alt, and merging down on to your opponent.

I can't really think of a good reason to do a merge like this, and quite a few reasons not to.

My best advice is to grab a Trainer, or a good "stick" who knows what's what and try it out.

The only reason to do what you suggested (that I could think of) would be to try and create and energy imbalance and E fight your opponent.

As they come up you nose down, maybe give them a shot and try to get them to bleed Energy, and then nose back up again and try to get position on them because they blew their advantage going for that shot.

That works in the LW, but vs. a decent duelist you gonna die.

From a positional perspective the lower pilot has more options if you decide to mix it up like that.  If they fly smart and don't do anything "stupid" they should hold most all the cards in the fight.

[TonyJoey]

Like lute said that merge just doesn't work on a stick who knows what they're doing. 

A rough and dirty sketch of what will happen more times than not-

[katanaso]

ETA:  (Response was to Lute, before the pic)

Ok, yeah, something like that, though I was thinking that at vis range, one would gain alt while the opponent was diving, so the vertical separation before the merge could eventually reach between 4k or 5k.  

I don't know what the speed difference would be though.  Would the lower plane have so much more speed that it negates such a large difference in altitude?  Or would it be close enough to where the higher plane could gain an advantage?

I'd like to try this and see if somebody is willing.  I don't pantomime moves anymore like I did in the 90's, when I was addicted to AW, but this is still fun to figure out.

[katanaso]

TonyJoey,

I agree with your pics.  Easy to see.

Without assumptions of plane type, speed at vis, what about this (assume the plane on the right may level a tad too, though the picture doesn't show it):



This is what I was trying to describe.

[WMLute]

You will not get 4-5k vert. separation because as soon as you opponent sees you are climbing they will stop diving.

The reason players dive during the merge in a duel is because whomever is lower has a positional advantage.  By both diving to the deck and merging neither player has the advantage of position by being lower.  It is about position not Energy.

As soon as you opponent saw you climbing they would stop diving, as they are lower and have the advantage of position.
(you gave it to them)

The most you would get is 1-2k vert. separation (if that) and your opponent will start the fight in the drivers seat with more options.

Bottom line is by climbing like that you are giving your opponent a huge advantage in position and gaining only some stored/potential Energy.

(Edit: I might add you don't gain enough stored Energy to be out of a gun solution by your opponent.  They can close within' 4-600' and shoot ya')

(Edit:Edit: Yeah, I beat my typing teachers personal best in 8th grade w/ 90wpm and zero mistake.  Heck, I didn't use Vox for years in AH because I can type so fast I almost didn't need it)

[Soulyss]

I've been able to make a situation like that work Mir (in the MA) but I think vs anyone with even a basic understanding of ACM in a duel environment you would tip your hat so early that the opponent would cut his dive short and zoom up a bit in a shallow climb to maintain less vertical separation, and you'd be right back to the situation TJ illustrated.  


*edit*

Lute types faster than I do.

[katanaso]

You guys are completely right, and I wasn't thinking about the other guy stopping his dive.  Thanks for pointing that out as I was definitely not thinking "Chess" today and instead thinking "52 Card Pickup"...     

I would've learned quickly after the first attempt...

I appreciate the remedial lesson. 

[JOACH1M]

ill join up JOACH1M

[ink]

look at this...continue the conversation, anyone???



http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,292790.0.html

[Changeup]

With all due respect TJ, I am not in favor of this as a potential change to the duel bracket.

 

Way

IN (On the deck)

Changeup

[sunfan1121]

 I've never understood the reasoning behind having the duels in the canyon.

[wgmount]

No offense taken because you are wrong.  

No matter what you do to try to angle off the bad guy, all he has to do is point his nose at your "hook around" merge and it's the same as the original situation of going nose on nose.  No matter what you do to create some sort of offset entrance angle, it is simply nullified by the bad guy pointing his nose at you.  If you continue to try to avoid the nose on nose merge and fly by with lateral separation, he will have an angles advantage, as his nose will be pointed at the side of your aircraft as it passes.  He now only has to turn around 150 degrees to get his nose around to you whereas you have to turn it around 180 degrees.  Textbook merge in aces high is a nose on nose merge slightly below your enemy (if possible) and enough lateral separation to avoid a head on shot.  

If you do not believe me we could film some merges in the DA, you doing that and then turning on tracking in the film viewer to show that all you are doing is burning E and not actually advancing your angular position.

I would like to see this. whenever you are available, and want to show me, let me know.     Flushed in game