Sadly...U can turn off the icons...but not the attitude

[Wiley]

How would we word it, so that people who fit that description could understand what we meant?

Well, we could put up every post from the forum about how people have been ganged, vulched, picked, HOed, warped, plug-pulled, had an uber plane flown against them where they lost, and all the rest of the standard issues of complaint.  Have the people read through them before they can log into the online arenas.  Then people would know how to fly to keep everybody happy, and people would be happy.

Wiley.

[humble]

What about the person who chooses the 1 against 2 or more?

Isn't that the crux of the issue? Almost every time I entered the AvA it was unbalanced to some degree. I always go to the low #'d side and so do others. I also recognize that certain AvA squads and/or particular players have a focus on a specific plane and fly the AvA to fight "their" plane in a historical context...great. But if you don't allow for those who will swim upstream at some point they just stop spawning. This is the lesson learned long ago in AW (before the days of WB's). If you beat the baby seals with compassion they often came back...if you clubbed them to death they didn't. The CT died because the concept of the "squad" got introduced and all of a sudden you had a quantum shift in the game dynamic.

For the AvA to survive it needs to protect its ecosystem...just that simple.

[mtnman]

Well, we could put up every post from the forum about how people have been ganged, vulched, picked, HOed, warped, plug-pulled, had an uber plane flown against them where they lost, and all the rest of the standard issues of complaint.  Have the people read through them before they can log into the online arenas.  Then people would know how to fly to keep everybody happy, and people would be happy.

Wiley.

Do you think they'd have a good grasp of basic game etiquette then?  And could apply it to this game?

[jimson]

What about the person who chooses the 1 against 2 or more?

Isn't that the crux of the issue? Almost every time I entered the AvA it was unbalanced to some degree. I always go to the low #'d side and so do others. I also recognize that certain AvA squads and/or particular players have a focus on a specific plane and fly the AvA to fight "their" plane in a historical context...great. But if you don't allow for those who will swim upstream at some point they just stop spawning. This is the lesson learned long ago in AW (before the days of WB's). If you beat the baby seals with compassion they often came back...if you clubbed them to death they didn't. The CT died because the concept of the "squad" got introduced and all of a sudden you had a quantum shift in the game dynamic.

For the AvA to survive it needs to protect its ecosystem...just that simple.

To some degree, a mindset of keeping the sides balanced exists among the AvA regulars. This needs to be encouraged and nurtured.

Often, I am just about to change sides to even out the numbers, and others beat me to it.

[cactuskooler]

I think the AvA is great. I had a good time for a while last night in the AvA. My last couple of sorties were my 38 vs 4+ 262s and 3 109/190s, it was time to leave. Some need to learn that in an arena with only a handful of people, you can't stomp your enemy to death and expect them to stay.

That being said, I saw several of the regulars switch to the low #'s side. I've also never been ganged that bad in the AvA before and won't hesitate to return next time I'm on.

[humble]

Cactus, I agree wholeheartedly. All in all it was a fun time with some great fights and reasonable balance...right up until it wasn't. The big challenge is really going to be how that exact scenario gets handled. Guys like you and me will hang in with no problems as long as we are having any measure of fun. When it gets bad enough to force us off its a sign of serious potential issues. The truth is we'll keep coming back...up to a point. I saw 30 or 40 really good sticks leave the CT because it was no longer worth the effort...hate to see it begin again.

[Wiley]

Mtnman-  Sorry, I forget tone doesn't always come through in text.  My point is, there's no way to legislate how people are going to fly.  Gangbanging happens all the time, every day in the game, in all arenas.  Complaining that people aren't flying the way a person wants them to is just not a profitable course of action.  Until there's a game mechanic that turns killshooter on if you're the third or more person to take a swipe at a bandit, people are going to take that swipe at that bandit.  If the reason is not found within the person that's doing it, there's no reason not to.

Humble-  The root of the problem you're experiencing I think is exactly what you stated in one of your earlier posts.

there is going to be a strong preference for certain planes and/or sides by most of us some of the time.

I think that tendency is stronger than you give it credit for in people who want to fly in an AvA type arena.  A lot of people seem to want to see how their plane of choice stacks up against people flying the opposite side's planes as opposed to their opposition being a mishmash of every fighter from the war.

Unfortunately, this assumes a world of guys that there just waiting to fly the opposing side's planes against you.  That is not always, or even often the case.

There is a class of player that likes to fly them all, but I don't think they're even close to being the majority.  Between that working against it, and the lack of icons weeding out a large majority of the playerbase, there just aren't that many people left looking for that kind of fight on both sides to keep it even.

Wiley.

[jimson]

I believe we need to encourage players to keep an eye on the roster and voluntarily switch sides as necessary to keep the arena balanced and fair for everyone.

There are usually enough decent guys to do this I think.

As far as trying to convince people not to gang, I don't think you can, but the latter will make it harder for them to do so.

As far as no-icons weeding people out, there wasn't near as much going on in the arena before that setting was enabled.

As a draw, I think it is a net plus.

[Wiley]

People checking on a change or something new is always going to up the number briefly.  (see WWI arenas)

The thing to watch for is how many stick with it after the shiny wears off.

I don't think it's a 'decent guy' thing necessarily, more of a 'decent guy that likes to fly both sides aircraft in an AvA scenario' that is the rarity.

Wiley.

[gpwurzel]

Just to counterpoint Wiley's point - gangbanging doesn't happen all the time. I was at a base, (having just had my backside shot off), upped and there were 2 a20's and a couple of other planes inbound. Didn't have the time to climb up to their alt, so concentrated on gaining a measure of e.

Humble was in one of the a20's (dunno who the rest were, getting old and my memory is shot!). At that stage, I was the only defender in the air, yet there was no ganging - got engaged, evaded and eventually killed a 190 - regained e and engaged an a20 - got my backside handed to me in short order.

That could have gone onto a very familiar 4 v 1 - yet it didn't - I had fun, hopefully they had fun and I kept reupping to try and kill a few of them.

Hard work when alt and e is against you, but - and an important but - I had a great time evading and trying to shoot straight. Numbers evened out eventually, but I had to log after that.

Point I'm trying to make, we are responsible for our conduct in arena's - irrespective of which one. We determine whether its fun or not. Do I expect to get ganged - hell yeah - some of the most fun fights I've been in were 8/9 v 1 or 2 of us - mostly I dont survive, sometimes I do. Do I appreciate the occasional 1 v 1, or 1 v 2 in the fight - yep. However, if its continually 9 v 1 or whatever, it stops becoming fun v. quickly so I'll move or log off - which reduces the numbers in the game, and leaves you with no one to fight.

ymmv,

Wurzel

[jimson]

People checking on a change or something new is always going to up the number briefly.  (see WWI arenas)

It's not all that new, enemy icons have been turned off since early March, and still seems to be invigorating the arena.

I often skip over my preferred plane in the AvA in favor of the low numbers side, all of my squad and plenty of others are also willing to do so.

If we can continue to encourage this type of behavior, we may be able to keep it good for everyone.

[Wiley]

All my point is, is that expecting that level of commitment to fairness out of the majority of the playerbase is just not a reasonable expectation.  Sure, there are people who 'often skip over their preferred plane in favor of the low numbers side'.  You are a minority.  You should not expect the same out of your opponents.  Getting uptight when they do not behave like you would is unreasonable.

Wurzel ran into a great situation where people let him do his thing.  I'm glad he was able to enjoy it.  There shouldn't be an expectation that upping under a CAP is going to result in anything otherthan a vulchfest.

Wiley.

[humble]

So tying your attitude into my original post...how much will you have with no one to shoot at?

[jimson]

All my point is, is that expecting that level of commitment to fairness out of the majority of the playerbase is just not a reasonable expectation.  Sure, there are people who 'often skip over their preferred plane in favor of the low numbers side'.  You are a minority.  You should not expect the same out of your opponents.  Getting uptight when they do not behave like you would is unreasonable.

True, but we don't have to be a majority to have the desired effect.

Also balancing out that part of human nature is the desire to have enough people to shoot at, so I think there are more who will change sides for even numbers than you might think.

[gpwurzel]

Exactly Wiley - which is why I made the point that the players control the way the "fun" is made. Not having a dig at you, by any means.

Was expecting to get vulched to be honest, was nice not to be. Was expecting to be ganged as well, again, was nice not to be. Was much more fun trying to get a kill or 2 whilst under the cosh - and that was as a direct consequence of how Humble and the rest were playing their advantages.

This is how the players can determine how the arena's are. Do I expect it to change - nope, not particularly. Do I hope it could change, yep, but I'm not holding my breath.

Wurzel