Dive Bombing w/ P38

[dorabogue]

 I have just spent some time in the Training Arena trying to learn how to dive bomb (accurately) with the P38. If I try to get the little red cross lined up with the gunsight I find myself almost in the vertical. Doing that seeems to require an early release in order to have time to pullout. Is the near vertical really the way to go or are there other techniques that people use? I appreciate the advice. Thanks.
Newkid

[bbosen]

Near vertical dives are effective for me. In the P38, I usually need to throttle all the way back to avoid compressibility (use dive flaps if in P38L). If you are too high to keep speeds under control even with dive flaps and chopped throttle, you can also twist rudders to add some drag, but that makes it much more difficult to aim, so I generally relax those rudders just before dropping ord.

I don't avoid vertical dives, but if all other factors are equal, I prefer to dive at 45 to 60 degrees or thereabouts. It's a lot easier to control my speed.

You also spoke of the "red cross" when referring to targeting. I think you are referring to the "Dive Bomb Sight", which is not available in most arenas. If it's available where you fly, it's a great way to aim, but as a general rule, outside of training and special situations, you won't see that red cross at all. Use it during training to get a general "feel" for the situation, but be prepared to try your aim without it in the big arenas.


-Peabody-

[bbosen]

One more thing. You wrote about trying to align the little red cross with the gunsight.

That's not necessary. If I am interpreting your description correctly, that "red cross" is the "Dive Bomb Sight". It predicts the spot ON THE GROUND where your weapon will likely impact. Just fly that red cross onto the target and release. Bam BOOM! Target dead.

Like I said previously, this will only work in training and some special arenas.


-Peabody-

[Soulyss]

To add a bit on what Bbosen posted the dive flaps on the 38L are there to help with the dive pull out and give you some elevator authority at high speeds, they won't actually slow you down or act a break. 

With dive bombing the closer to pure vertical you are the closer to the gunsight the aim point will be.  What that means is you can either use that point and dive at or close to 90 degrees as you've been doing, or you can find another reference point to aim with and lay off and come in at a little more shallow of an angle.  There are some player made gun-sights out there that have secondary marks for bombs launched at a given angle, or you can use a point in the cockpit, like the base of the gun-sight itself for example. 

With some practice it'll get easier and eventually you should start seeing consistent results.  You may also want to experiment with either dialing in some bottom elevator trim prior to entering the dive or hitting combat trim to keep the nose from creeping up as speed increases which I find makes it harder for me to aim my drop. It's also critical that the slip indicator is centered when you drop (pretty easy in the 38) if it's off to one side that means the plane is skidding and it will through off your aim.

If the speed does build up too much for the pull out and the elevator starts getting heavy either hit the 'ol dive flaps and dial in some up trim on the elevator to help get the nose up.

[dorabogue]

Thank you for your comments. What I was trying to accomplish in the Training Arena was to see what the gusight picture would look like relative to the "training" bomb sight. I think I will work on the near vertical and try to get comfortable with it. Another question: I have tried two approaches. (1) Going inverted and then pulling down on the target as it passes overhead, and (2) while in normal flight (not inverted) keeping the target just slightly to the left and then rolling in on it just as it begins to pass under the wing. Is there another way? What sort of approach do you guys use? Also, what about using one notch of flaps in addition to the dive brake? Thanks again.
Newkid

[Soulyss]

I'm not sure there's one approach that's any better than another, find one that you're comfortable with and stick with it for awhile.  In the 38 you'll only be able to get that first notch of flaps out if you're under 250mph IAS, if the conditions are right it should help swing the nose up during pull out but may not be necessary as you should have good elevator authority at those speeds. 

[dorabogue]

Thanks again. I'm off to more practice.

[Ack-Ack]

Also, what about using one notch of flaps in addition to the dive brake? Thanks again.
Newkid

First, the dive flaps on the L are not dive brakes.  2nd, do not deploy a notch of flaps when dive bombing.


ack-ack

[bozon]

1. Diving vertically is not a very efficient way of dive bombing: You have a very short time to aim, risk over-speeding and forced to make a high G pullout burning a lot of energy. If you start from high speed you can use a shallower dive - the trajectory of the bomb will be flatter due to the speed and a 60 degree dive is enough to have the aiming point visible over the nose for all practical release altitudes.

2. Zero G dive - if you put the plane in zero G you are in near free fall (the engine is still pulling though). This will be close to the trajectory of the bomb and improve the "feel" of where it would hit - at least for me.

3. Approach - always try to make the attack direction in the direction you want to egress to. Use the high speed out of the dive to take you fast in the right direction instead of taking you fast into deeper ****. This usually means something close to what you describe as #2: Keep the target slightly to one side, often flying slightly PAST it and get into the attack dive with a wingover. You'd want to approach the target fast (do not arrive at 160mph climb speed!) and the wingover by pulling the nose high gives you a little altitude, lower airspeed just for the short critical aiming phase and thus gives longer time to aim.

4. Pull out with a little G as needed until you are level or a very shallow climb. Check 6 for fighters, get out of the acks and only then decide if you want to zoom up. The fastest way out of danger is at 500 mph like a cruise missile, not in a zoom climb straight up.

5. Never dive bomb with combat trim on.

6. Never dive bomb with combat trim on.

7. Never dive bomb with combat trim on.

8. What I tell you 3 times is true.

[dorabogue]

Thanks again. I'm amazed at how helpful most people are. In my efforts in the Training arena this afternoon I found a dive in the 60 degree range a lot more comfortable. The ground doesn't come up as quickly that way. I'm not yet as accurate as I would like to be, but I haven't given up yet. Thanks again to all.

[fuzeman]

Also, when using any secondary weapon, bombs, rockets ,etc. , DO NOT use any rudder input at all. It will swing the planes nose on target and seem to be more accurate but secondary weapons do NOT follow the nose of the plane like bullets do. They drop along the flight path, that may not be the most accurate term, of the plane you are flying. You can do a quick graphic verification of what I mean in the Training Arena. Make a dive bomb attack and swing the nose left and right with rudder input, you will notice the green training site does NOT follow the rudder left and right but stays pretty much centered.

[AAJagerX]

If I'm dive bombing with the 38 the first thing to watch is initial speed before the dive.  If I'm above 8k I make sure to bleed off some of the excess E before rolling in. 

The most accurate drops I've had were at about 45-50 degrees nose on the target, release at D600 with the tgt in the crosshairs.  Hardly ever miss when I drop that way.

Of course, sometimes you don't have the luxury of getting that close.

Good Luck.

[dorabogue]

All very good input and i'm trying all suggetions. I have to admit though that when I try going close to vertical, which so far, for me is the most accurate, I find that I sometimes mark my laundry. Uncomfortable if a long way from home.  Next question: how to avoid ack on egress? I'm sure the first step must be to go emergency pucker, if not already too late.

[Soulyss]

If I'm dive bombing with the 38 the first thing to watch is initial speed before the dive.  If I'm above 8k I make sure to bleed off some of the excess E before rolling in. 

The most accurate drops I've had were at about 45-50 degrees nose on the target, release at D600 with the tgt in the crosshairs.  Hardly ever miss when I drop that way.

Of course, sometimes you don't have the luxury of getting that close.

Good Luck.

600 yards is cutting it a bit close, keep in mind that in the game the bomb has to travel 1000 feet (combined vertical and horizontal travel) before it arms.

[AAJagerX]

I know it's on the close side, but at that angle it'll pop a tank no prob.  It's taken me many failed attempts to develop my technique, but that's how I have the best luck on tanks.  Made quite a few of the gv'ers pretty angry last night doing this.

If I'm hitting a static object, I'll drop from much higher and at a greater angle (near vertical).