Author Topic: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling  (Read 17700 times)

Offline hlbly

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #120 on: June 12, 2010, 04:16:32 PM »
Brewster's fuel load is much bigger portion of its weight than A-8s fuel load is from its weight. The HTC charts are with full fuel load. Hlbly used 25% fuel loads in his test. My guess is that the power loadings agree nicely with real life figures. :)
A guess is your evidence ? Show me the data that supports the claim that irl the buff should out accelerate the 190 with its much higher horsepower and much lower drag .

Offline Ex-jazz

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #121 on: June 12, 2010, 05:13:43 PM »
A guess is your evidence ? Show me the data that supports the claim that irl the buff should out accelerate the 190 with its much higher horsepower and much lower drag .

How much lower drag? What kind of drag? In what condition?

Show me the data that supports the claim of the lower drag.

Offline dtango

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #122 on: June 12, 2010, 10:17:17 PM »
A guess is your evidence ? Show me the data that supports the claim that irl the buff should out accelerate the 190 with its much higher horsepower and much lower drag .
Well, let me commend you for starting to shed light on the logic behind your statements that something is off with the Brewster's acceleration. 

Some more questions for you to delve a bit deeper into it all:
1) Are you implying total drag coefficient of an airplane remains constant in level flight from minimum to maximum airspeed?
2) What leads you to believe the drag of the 190 is lower than the B-239 and is it always lower than the B-239 in level flight no matter what the airspeed is (assuming we're comparing drag of the 190a-8 and b-239 at the same airspeeds)?

As a tangent I should mention I replicated your tests following your test procedures (though using TAS instead so that I can reverify timing using film recorder).  I got the following values:
B-239, 25%, 150-250 TAS, 1.3k, ~33s
190A-8, 25% 150-250 TAS, 1.3k, ~25s (WEP)

Regardless of the values, based on your statements we need to straighten out the physics logic you've been assuming.  I'm purposely asking questions not to embarrass anyone but to help shed light on where the logic might have gone awry.

Tango
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Offline E25280

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #123 on: June 13, 2010, 08:57:13 PM »
Brewster at 1k alt 150 to 250 mph ias `22 seconds
FW190a8` at 1kalt 150 to 250 mph ias 25 seconds
Could not figure out how to do it at sea level . Was unable to keep gear on while on the ground at that speed . :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Test conducted at 1000 k alt auto level on . E6b used for recording speed . 1k alt was obtained throttled back until speed was 120 ias . Full throttle then applied .2 stop watches started by myself and wife as speed hit 150 ias. watches stopped at 250 ias . Test repeated 5 times . Differences in times below .5 seconds for both watches , each test . AC were augured after each test . Fuel level was 25% no ords and lightest gun package .

How on earth did you get the brewster from 150 to 250 in 22 seconds in level flight?  I tested this myself today and got 41 seconds with full fuel and 35 seconds with 25% fuel.
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Offline dtango

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2010, 11:06:40 AM »
Hlbly, I'll throw you a bone.  Your numbers or our numbers are inconsequential in relationship to the logic you've laid out.  Not picking on you but your claim about the Buffalo being "wrong" in AH is like the 10,000th claim that "something is amiss in the land of Denmark".  It follows a familiar pattern: IF it doesn't fly in a way I expect or can explain it THEN the FM must be wrong.  

Here's the problem.  Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean that it's wrong.  Like the past 10,000 other claims has it occured to you that maybe what's wrong is not the FM but your understanding of the physics?  That's why to prove something is wrong it's not enough to make observations. You need to EXPLAIN the logic behind the conclusions you made about your observations.

In your last post you finally revealed some of your logic.  The FW190A-8 has greater horsepower (thus greater thrust) and a lower drag compared to the B-239 therefore the FW190A-8 should out accelerate the B-239.  Sounds logical.  However there a couple of problems with this that I've been throwing hints at to get you to think about them.  Let's explain.

Let's use a simplistic example assuming fixed thrust & drag to demonstrate.  We have two airplanes:
Plane A: weight=8,900 lbs, thrust=2,500 lbs, drag=525 lbs
Plane B: weight=4,400 lbs, thrust=1,800 lbs, drag=725 lbs

Which airplane accelerates faster than the other?  Basis your logic Plane A would because it has greater thrust and lower drag.  This would be wrong however because Plane B actually accelerates faster.

Plane A: a=7.1 ft/s^2
Plane B: a=7.9 ft/s^2  

Why?  Acceleration in the direction of flight in level flight simplifies to:

a = (thrust-drag) / mass

So the first problem in your logic is that you've only factored in thrust and drag in your assessment but not mass.  Ignore variables at your peril because they will bite you in the butt.  So acceleration is a function of thrust, drag, and mass and as you can see in our example mass can make a difference.  How much of a difference does the mass make?  That leads to the 2nd problem with your original logic.

To know how much of a difference mass makes on acceleration you also have know the VALUES of thrust and drag as well.  Both thrust and drag are non-linear for our piston-prop airplanes and vary with velocity.  In other words they change in way that makes generalized statements like "thrust is greater, drag is less" between planes meaningless unless you specify where in the flight envelope you're talking about.  So the 2nd problem is that you have to factor in the non-linear changes of thrust, drag, and thus also the non-linear changes in acceleration before you can even know if one plane out accelerates another over a portion of the flight envelope.

"Young cat! If you keep your eyes open enough, oh the stuff you will learn! The most wonderful stuff....The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places you'll go."  (I Can Read With My Eyes Shut - Dr. Seuss)

Tango
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« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 11:27:02 AM by dtango »
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2010, 12:26:41 PM »
LOL!

I truly admire your patience Tango! :) <S>

For me however, it's best if I keep from trying to reason with hlbly.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 12:28:26 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline dtango

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #126 on: June 14, 2010, 01:22:39 PM »
LOL!

I truly admire your patience Tango! :) <S>

If someone really has an honest attempt to learn then I entertain that the best I can.  I have my limits though.  9 pages is already feeling uncomfortable.  I made it to 16 pages once!  Now this 40+ page one in the recent past- no thanks. :D

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Dr. Seuss aerodynamics would be grand, but sadly it only applies to green eggs and ham.

Tango
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline Wmaker

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #127 on: June 14, 2010, 02:31:38 PM »
honest attempt to learn

Personally, I think that there's a problem right there but hopefully I'm wrong. I'll sit back and see how this pans out. :)
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Offline gripen

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #128 on: June 14, 2010, 02:39:58 PM »
Perhaps some one could test if the Brewster does close to these (me busy):

Acceleration/deacceleration test at 2000m
320 -> 380km/h IAS 43s
380 -> 320km/h IAS 12s

These values are from Finnish data tested on squadron (Pyro have this data).

Offline Charge

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2010, 03:48:48 AM »
"These values are from Finnish data tested on squadron (Pyro have this data)."

When?
Which aircraft is that, BW-???
Which engine, Cyclone or M63?
Engine settings?

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Offline save

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #130 on: June 17, 2010, 03:47:11 AM »
The 190a8 has too much mass in AH today, something Pyro and HT aknowledged and will look into at in a future release/version/star date / *
so be advised comparing it with any other plane
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 05:49:30 AM by save »
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #131 on: June 17, 2010, 06:42:37 AM »
The 190a8 has too much mass in AH today, something Pyro and HT aknowledged and will look into at in a future release/version/star date / *
so be advised comparing it with any other plane


Anyone who is hoping for a drastic difference as a result of a change will be disappointed.  The weight difference is not large at all, if indeed it is changed.  Ultimately, the 190A8 will perform quite like it does now.
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Offline save

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #132 on: June 17, 2010, 10:38:20 AM »
With less mass I expect 190a8  to be  more nimble - and a bit closer to some of its competitors - every mid -44 plane outclasses it - including the 190a5 it was suppose to superceed.


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Offline STEELE

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #133 on: June 17, 2010, 06:55:50 PM »
If the Luft had our A8 in the war they would say "Ze 190, she ist a schwein!". Let's hope it gets put on a diet soon.
The Kanonenvogel had 6 rounds per pod, this is not even close to being open for debate.

Offline Spikes

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Re: Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling
« Reply #134 on: July 01, 2010, 04:07:40 PM »
I just encountered a Brewster today in an F4F. I had 2K of alt and obvious E (him getting off a climb, same as me. Probably me going about 300 and him going 250. I pull vertical and he does too, except he climbed right up to me and pinged the crap out of me. Any other plane I would have been  dead .
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