This Week in the AvA - Operation Dragoon: Southern France Aug. 1944

[gyrene81]

August 15, 1944 Operation Dragoon - Allied invasion of Southern France.

On August 15, 1944 forces from the U.S., U.K., Canada and France took part in the invasion of Southern France along the “French Riviera” area. The invasion force consisted of 6 multi-national naval task forces, the U.S. 7th Army and the French Armee “B” with carrier based air support from the U.S., Britain and France (flying U.S. and U.K. aircraft) as well as bombers from the Mediterranean Allied Tactical Air Force .
The only opposing force was the German 19th Army with limited support from the Luftwaffe, neither of which could offer much resistance to the Allied invasion. The bulk of available German forces had been diverted to counter the Normandy invasion forces.

For this setup we’re going to use the Greece terrain with limited active bases and equipment.  

There will be objectives for each side to enable different equipment for each side.


Allies start with 2 active CV groups. For the purpose of this setup they will not be controllable and will have a set path traveling parallel to the area of initial activity far enough off shore to prevent ship ack from being a factor in fights along the shoreline. East to West just South of the 15 line. Ship guns can be manned in the event of attacks on the ships and for the purpose of bombarding the bases closest to shore with the cruiser guns.


Allied Aircraft to start:
Seafire
FM2
F6F
(no rockets available)
B-25c (A115 only)
Lancaster (A115 only)
P-38J (A114, no ords for bomber escorts)


Allied vehicles to start:
LVTs

The allies first objective will be to take at least one of the neutral vbases along the coast (v99, v72, v103, v102) in order to gain the use of the following equipment:
Sherman tank 75mm
M16
M3
M8
Jeep

Capture A7 to get P-51D, 76mm Sherman and P-47D-40 with ords.
No C-47s.

To win the battle, capture v96 and hold 3 of the 4 coastal vbases.




The 2 ports in the area will be axis held but only the vehicle hangars will be active...no ships.

The axis control v97, v98, v100, a43, a42 and a7.

All other bases are inactive Axis.

Axis aircraft to start:
109G6
109G2
190A5
190A8
Ju-88 (no torpedoes)

Axis vehicles to start:
Panzer IV
Wirbelwind
Ostwind
SdKfz 251

Capture V102 to get the Tiger.
Capture A114 to get the 190D9 and 109K4.

To win the battle, capture A115 and hold 3 of the 4 coastal vbases (v99, v72, v103, v102).


Any equipment that has been enabled with a field capture will not be disabled if the fields are lost to the enemy.


Arena Settings

Killshooter:     Off
Fuel Burn:     1.0
Enemy Icons:        Off  
Friendly Icons:    2.5    
AAA:                .25      
Dar NOE Height:     500 ft
Radar settings:     full friendly, tower full dot, clipboard sector.
Troop Capture:     15 drunks      
Visibility:     10 miles      
Bombsight:     hardcore      
Hangar DT:     45 mins      
AAA DT:           45 minutes      
Towns DT:         60 mins      

[TheBug]

Nice <S> 

[humble]

looks like fun, I think that the P-51C was actually the primary pony involved in operation Dragoon (VSC-8). RAF 2 SQD, 268 SQD and 414 SQD flew of 1 & 1a (Allison powered) mustangs.

 Late in July, 10 brand-new P-51C
Mustangs were delivered to the 111 th
for use exclusively by VCS-8 aviators.
The invasion of southern France
began on 15 August, and by 30
August, Commander, Task Force 86,
requested that all Naval Aviators
assigned to the 111 th Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron return to their
ships. In all, 11 flyers from VCS-8
participated in combat operations from
the cockpits of 111 th P-51 Mustangs.

The rest were F-6A mustangs (the recon version of the Allison P-51)

[Dawger]

I like it.

How about some P-38's and P-47's as well?

They participated in the invasion as well.

They should be based southeast of the invasion beach in the case of the P-38's (1st FG was based on Corsica for Dragoon) 114 or 115 would be appropriate. The P38's were escorting recon missions and doing long range strafing attacks.

[captain1ma]

kill shooter will be on.

[gyrene81]

First, sorry for the late notice on this. It's Jaeger's week to run a setup and he decided to use my setup (lots of reference help from Shifty) as part of my initiation...I was slow in responding to his inquiries so it's my fault it's getting posted "last minute".


Humble, I noticed the "C stangs" in one article I read...wasn't sure which model to use in this setup, should we change to the "B" model instead of the "D"s?


Dawger, I made the decision to base enablement of the P-38s and P-47s on the capture of A7 to start since the references I used showed the invasion did not involve the use of those aircraft until the armies landed started moving North. Maybe change it to P-38s at A114 for bomber escort (no bombs or rockets enabled) and have the Ponies enabled with the Jugs if A7 is captured?

Everything I saw said the P-51s provided escort for the bombers so that's what I went off of, and for the sake of game play even though I hate the term "balance".

[Dawger]

First, sorry for the late notice on this. It's Jaeger's week to run a setup and he decided to use my setup (lots of reference help from Shifty) as part of my initiation...I was slow in responding to his inquiries so it's my fault it's getting posted "last minute".


Humble, I noticed the "C stangs" in one article I read...wasn't sure which model to use in this setup, should we change to the "B" model instead of the "D"s?


Dawger, I made the decision to base enablement of the P-38s and P-47s on the capture of A7 to start since the references I used showed the invasion did not involve the use of those aircraft until the armies landed started moving North. Maybe change it to P-38s at A114 for bomber escort (no bombs or rockets enabled) and have the Ponies enabled with the Jugs if A7 is captured?

Everything I saw said the P-51s provided escort for the bombers so that's what I went off of, and for the sake of game play even though I hate the term "balance".

if you enable any US land based fighters they should be at 114 or 115 only in my opinion. But I'm pretty weird about that stuff. I like to fly 60 miles to the fight and historically they were in Corsica, 110 miles from the Cote D'Azur in France.

 As for sources, different ones always say different things. Hard to get a straight answer really without seeing actual AAR's. What I read has most of the escorting being done for recon and transport aircraft, which makes sense in an amphibious/airborne invasion. I'm sure there were bomber operations in the area but not in direct support of the invasion and that is probably why the references differ somewhat.

As for game play or balance, the Pony D is certainly more of a "balance" issue than the 38 or the 47 but I think keeping them well away from the landing beach is going to solve the balance issue for most folks in any case.

And of course I'm asking for semi-selfish reasons. I'm in a P38 squadron and it is a lot easier to get the CO to drag everyone into the AvA for P38's.

Up to you. Either way I like the setup.

[gyrene81]

Ok, for the sake of argument and since everyone pretty much everyone agrees the resources available say different things...and based on what Humble posted in regards to at least one group of P-51s assigned to the invasion...I made one last change (sorry Jaeger).

P-38Js start at A114 with no ords available at that base. Anyone who chooses to use the 38s can escort the bombers flying from A115 or strafe and dogfight.

Allies capture A7 to gain use of the P-51D and P-47D-40 with ords as well as the 76mm Sherman.


That should keep the "balance" fairly decent and provide enough fighting capabilities for both sides to mix it up. It's going to take team work (or late night milk running  ) for the objectives to be met.



Capture of any bases other than those specifically noted as being active at the beginning or as objectives to be captured will gain nothing but a useless base.

[humble]

The B pony is the correct option based on what I know....To the best of my knowledge all of the ponies were RAF and were various I, Ia and III. The III was a B or C model....

[Dawger]

I see 31st FG supporting in Ponies for this Operation so D's aren't unreasonable. They got D's in June 44.

[humble]

Only in very limited duty escorting transports. They flew no interdiction or bomber escort and to the best of my knowledge did not expend a single round of ammo over southern France. They flew escort on all 3 strikes against Ploesti and were tasked with all VIP escort missions related to the surrender of Romania from 23 August onward so they had little actual involvement with Dragoon...

[Dawger]

Only in very limited duty escorting transports. They flew no interdiction or bomber escort and to the best of my knowledge did not expend a single round of ammo over southern France. They flew escort on all 3 strikes against Ploesti and were tasked with all VIP escort missions related to the surrender of Romania from 23 August onward so they had little actual involvement with Dragoon...

So, because you don't think they flew an important enough role they can't be in this setup?

 I doubt the guys in the transports felt that way.

I think this is more Humble isn't really all that humble.

The D model was there, supporting the landings and airborne operations on August 14 and 15 and they stayed there until August 20. The P38's and P-47's had much the same role.

And the 31st FG wasn't the only P-51D unit that participated in Dragoon but you are so well versed you already know that. I wonder if what those P-51's did was worthy of being included in this setup?

I just love these little tete a tete's with you. They are so productive.

It would have been easier to say "Hey, The D model did participate."

So humble....did any American unit flying P-51D's in support of Dragoon fire any rounds over France?

I wonder....................... .............

 

[Dawger]

 

[humble]

I'm sorry you feel the need to try and make things so personal, obviously you have some serious issues of some type to resolve. You handle the BBS like you fly all chicken@#$^ and bluster. My comment was simply my understanding of what the major combatants that flew operational sorties and repeatedly engaged the enemy were in. Now obviously I'm sure a few folks like you would prefer to fly the best plane you can get (with the most #'s and altitude) at all times. Since I always fly the low side from the closest field to the action this stuff rarely concerns me....back at you

[TheBug]

What's the AvA without a little drama?