Nothing to see here, move along

[Tr1gg22]

TY for the slide show....

[DYNAMITE]

Hard to watch... My grandfather was a bombardier in a B-24 during the war.  It's not easy to see those birds going down and thinking about all the wonderful men who, unlike my grandfather, didn't make it...

[Babalonian]

Your argument has one serious flaw: How could they have "killed, fought and died" for something they knew nothing of? The Holocaust wasn't a known fact until 1945 when the camps were overrun. The Allied leadership received reports of possible atrocities as early as 1941, but they were skeptical as to the scale of the crimes. The full horror of the Holocaust wasn't known until 1945.

So again, how could the Allied soldiers, airmen and sailors have "killed, fought and died" for something they knew nothing of?

People have already stated them a lot earlier in this thread, read it again.

There was plenty known about the atrocities the Axis powers were capable of and were committing before we went to open war with them.  The invasion of Poland and France to our east had reports oozing outa them to us of the Nazi's atrocities (not to mention the number of German people (Jew and non-Jews) fleeing their own homes to escape their own government).  And to say the Japanese "raped and pillaged" Nanjing in China to our west would do injustice for those unfortunate souls and refugees caught in the middle of it (your lack of historical knowledge is discusting to say the least, just go grab another hot pocket and get back to your history channel special on). 

The Holocaust the we "uncovered" (which is a questionable term because while we had lots of intelligence on the Jews being purged and oppressed by the Nazis (heck, how many times have you watched a WWII movie and seen a Jewish-American soldier itching to seek personal revenge on a Nazi before the allies hit the beaches on D-day), we failed to research it further than those reports and so were truely unaware of the full scale and scope of it) when we entered Germany's Europe was unfortunately the proverbial icing on an already rotten and bitter cake that the free world had to swallow.


edited for spellchecker

[Die Hard]

they did know that Hitler was terrorizing Europe, brutalizing British POW's, and keeping a stranglehold on his own people, and that is an atrocity in itself

I don't know about brutalizing British POWs, and the German population largely approved of the Nazi regime until the war went sour for them, but there were plenty of reasons to fight and even for brutality; the London Blitz and the U-boat peril being big ones in that regard. However, saving the Jews was not, and claiming such is attributing some sort of "noble sacrifice to save others" to what was in every sense a war of self-defense and national survival. I have very little, if any, sympathy for the German population considering they created the Nazi regime and supported it in its "total war", but I cannot respect people who would willingly drop hundreds of thousands of pounds of high explosives and incendiaries on helpless civilians... No matter the uniform or how strongly felt their cause. I don't condemn them either, let that be said.

That said, to dress up the firebombing of hundreds of thousands of civilians in "we did it for the Jews" is not only morally reprehensible, but an insult to the millions of Jews that were murdered. If the Allies actually did know of the death camps they did nothing to stop the slaughter.

[Die Hard]

People have already stated them a lot earlier in this thread, read it again.

No need. I was specifically addressing Plawranc dramatic and pictorial argument that the RAF and his grandfather was burning down German cities to save the Jews. There were many good reasons to fight, even to be brutal, but that was not one of them, and I found it distasteful to in part lay the responsibility for the slaughter of German civilians on the Jews. "We killed all these people to save the Jews!"... No we most certainly did not.

[Babalonian]

I don't know about brutalizing British POWs, and the German population largely approved of the Nazi regime until the war went sour for them, but there were plenty of reasons to fight and even for brutality; the London Blitz and the U-boat peril being big ones in that regard. However, saving the Jews was not, and claiming such is attributing some sort of "noble sacrifice to save others" to what was in every sense a war of self-defense and national survival. I have very little, if any, sympathy for the German population considering they created the Nazi regime and supported it in its "total war", but I cannot respect people who would willingly drop hundreds of thousands of pounds of high explosives and incendiaries on helpless civilians... No matter the uniform or how strongly felt their cause. I don't condemn them either, let that be said.

That said, to dress up the firebombing of hundreds of thousands of civilians in "we did it for the Jews" is not only morally reprehensible, but an insult to the millions of Jews that were murdered. If the Allies actually did know of the death camps they did nothing to stop the slaughter.

OK, to clarify your facts with facts, we started firebombing the axis powers because they were using it to great effect on us.  Japs started using it on Indo-China to devastating effect, so truly we have them to thank for the idea of how effective and crippling it is to an enemies infrastructure to do a single firebomb raid on a high-density civilian population living in matchstick and paper structures in the Asiatic theatre, sorry if it sucked to be on the receiving end after sending it.  Germany targeted London indiscriminately because it was the largest and easiest target to hit that also included: leadership/political targets, manufacturing targets, largest labor force targets (working in the factories) and London also represented the largest concentration of Britains military assets.  The same can be said for the many German held cities we unfortunately returned the indiscriminate leveling strategy against, they were the largest and easiest targets to locate that also held the largest concentrations of manufacturing, war labor and military assets.  Since cities held such strategical and material importance in a military campaign and the practice of strategic pinpoint bombing hadn't been invented yet, dropping millions of tons of explosives indiscriminately on a city until there was nothing left was how it got done in WWII on both sides.

[Plawranc]

Kristalnacht, the Ghettos.

They certainly knew about that. And how about the massacres conducted by the SS on Russian, British and French POW's? they CERTAINLY knew about that. Also, when your home has been blown up 3 CONSECUTIVE TIMES (my family home was whacked twice by the luftwaffe and once by a V1) and you have watched and heard your friends screaming as their lancaster caught fire AND had to land a Stirling bomber after the pilot and all your friends were killed from a run by a ME-110. You wouldnt be in a compassionate mood.

They fought oppression and for the freedom and for the safety of EVERYONE in Europe. And that is one thing that NO ONE on this bulletin board can claim to have done (to my knowledge).

I am only 16 and I have seen a lot of horrible things already in my life, imagine being only 19 or 20 and having to see what is in the pictures I posted. Ill tell you something, I bet the only thing stopping the British and American troops from gunning every german down after seeing the holocaust is the rationale that "we are better than them".

This whole argument... all of it is debated and debated. So what if the firebombing was wrong, does that condone the mis drops and panic drops by American crews who dropped on city civillian centres by acciedent? Does that condone the German bombing of Rotterdam and Coventry? the fact that Britain did not start hitting German cities until bombs fell on London?

As someone whose family fought in WW2 and a good section of my family would have been sent to those hell camps if Britain had fell I have the deepest and utmost respect for all veterans of that war. Even the Germans not in the SS I have respect for because they had the same aim as every man, their countries safety and their families safety. And anyone who raises an argument saying they were killers or heartless in my mind deserves no notice or time and should NEVER talk about the war until they have fought in one themselves.

[Die Hard]

OK, to clarify your facts with facts, we started firebombing the axis powers because they were using it to great effect on us.  Japs started using it on Indo-China to devastating effect, so truly we have them to thank for the idea of how effective and crippling it is to an enemies infrastructure to do a single firebomb raid on a high-density civilian population living in matchstick and paper structures in the Asiatic theatre, sorry if it sucked to be on the receiving end after sending it.  Germany targeted London indiscriminately because it was the largest and easiest target to hit that also included: leadership/political targets, manufacturing targets, largest labor force targets (working in the factories) and London also represented the largest concentration of Britains military assets.  The same can be said for the many German held cities we unfortunately returned the indiscriminate leveling strategy against, they were the largest and easiest targets to locate that also held the largest concentrations of manufacturing, war labor and military assets.  Since cities held such strategical and material importance in a military campaign and the practice of strategic pinpoint bombing hadn't been invented yet, dropping millions of tons of explosives indiscriminately on a city until there was nothing left was how it got done in WWII on both sides.

That's inaccurate in so many ways that I don't know where to begin. You need to read The Mighty Eight by Roger A. Freeman. Let's just say that strategic bombing was no great success in WWII, and certainly not for the Germans.

Kristalnacht, the Ghettos.

Happened in the late 1930s... and we did nothing. It was hardly why we fought several years later.

And how about the massacres conducted by the SS on Russian, British and French POW's? they CERTAINLY knew about that.

Which massacres on British and French POW's are you referring to? There were small isolated incidents on both sides, but no systematic killing or mistreatment of POW's on the western front. The eastern front is a different matter.

Also, when your home has been blown up 3 CONSECUTIVE TIMES (my family home was whacked twice by the luftwaffe and once by a V1) and you have watched and heard your friends screaming as their lancaster caught fire AND had to land a Stirling bomber after the pilot and all your friends were killed from a run by a ME-110. You wouldnt be in a compassionate mood.

Those are good reasons, but they have nothing to do with the plight of the European Jewry... as I said.

They fought oppression and for the freedom and for the safety of EVERYONE in Europe.

If you had the privilege to know your grandfather and asked him why he fought I'm pretty sure he'd say what most soldiers say: That he fought for his own life, the life of his mates, and for his family back home. I have never met or read about a WWII soldier who claim he fought to save the Jews or for "everyone in Europe".

I am only 16 and I have seen a lot of horrible things already in my life...

Most people on this bbs are twice your age, if not more. Many are serving, or have served in the military, and some have fought in war. Some are actually fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan now.

This whole argument... all of it is debated and debated. So what if the firebombing was wrong, does that condone the mis drops and panic drops by American crews who dropped on city civillian centres by acciedent?

I'm not saying the firebombing was wrong, and the USAAF did not shy away from firebombing civilians; they did in fact burn down most of Japan. However, I'm not prepared to pass judgement on these people, but I am choosy about the people I respect: People who deliberately target civilians are not among them.

Does that condone the German bombing of Rotterdam and Coventry? the fact that Britain did not start hitting German cities until bombs fell on London?

"They did it too" is not a valid excuse for either side, and you seriously need to read up on history: British bombs fell on German cities first. On 3 and 4 September 1939 the RAF bombed the harbors of Wilhelmshaven, Cuxhaven and Heligoland. The Germans responded by bombing British naval bases including Scapa Flow. The first British bombs to kill civilians fell on Mönchengladbach on the night of 11/12 May 1940 when the British conducted their first raid on German civilian industry and bombed the Ruhr Valley, including Cologne. On May 15, 1940; the Air Ministry authorized Air Marshal Charles Portal to attack targets in the Ruhr, including oil plants and other civilian industrial targets which aided the German war effort, such as blast furnaces (which at night were self-illuminating).

Churchill explained the rationale of his decision to his French counterparts in a letter dated May 16: "I have examined today with the War Cabinet and all the experts the request which you made to me last night and this morning for further fighter squadrons. We are all agreed that it is better to draw the enemy on to this Island by striking at his vitals, and thus to aid the common cause." Due to the inadequate British bomb-sights the strikes that followed "had the effect of terror raids on towns and villages." On the night of 15/16 May, 96 bombers crossed the Rhine and attacked. 78 had been assigned oil targets, but only 24 claimed to have accomplished their objective. On the night of May 17/18, RAF Bomber Command bombed oil installations in Hamburg and Bremen; the HE and 400 incendiaries dropped caused six large, one moderately large and 29 small fires. As a result of the attack, 47 people were killed and 127 were wounded. Railway yards at Cologne were attacked on the same night. During May, Essen, Duisburg, Düsseldorf and Hanover were attacked in a similar fashion by Bomber Command. In June, attacks were made on Dortmund, Mannheim, Frankfurt and Bochum. At the time, Bomber Command lacked the necessary navigational and bombing technical background and the accuracy of the bombings during the night attacks was abysmal. Consequently, the bombs were usually scattered over a large area, causing an uproar in Germany. Furthermore, on the night of 7/8 June 1940 a single French Navy Farman F.223 bomber attacked Berlin.

For the Germans, Hitler's OKW Direktive Nr 2 and Luftwaffe Direktive Nr 2, both failed to mention strategic bomber raids and prohibited attacks upon enemy naval forces unless the enemy bombed Germany first, noting, "the guiding principle must be not to provoke the initiation of aerial warfare on the part of Germany." At this point in time Germany was still trying to avoid war with Britain. Despite the British attacks on German cities, the Luftwaffe did not begin to attack military and economic targets in the UK mainland until 6 weeks after the campaign in France had been concluded.

...and should NEVER talk about the war until they have fought in one themselves.

Have you fought in war?

[VonMessa]

the German population largely approved of the Nazi regime until the war went sour for them,

As if they were given much of a choice?

You have no idea how offensive that statement is on so many levels.

I personally have family members, as well as, friends of theirs that are not with us today compliments of the Gestapo.

Why?

Because they were STANDING TOO FAR IN THE BACK OF THE CROWD during one of Hitler's speeches in Munich and tried to leave because THEY WANTED TO GET HOME IN TIME TO SET UP FOR A FAMILY PICNIC.

Yeah....   That's some real un-patriotic stuff there, huh?

Obviously you weren't living in Germany during the Nazi regime, and from the sound of it, you have never had a 1 on 1 conversation with someone who did, either.

Not all, and not even most Germans during the war were filthy Nazi's.  Only a fraction were.  It was mostly those who were in charge, appointed to their position by Hitler.  The rest were just like you and me.  They were everyday people that answered a call to duty.  For those that couldn't serve, it was a constant state of paranoia about what they said, who they said it to, how they acted and how they lived, lest the Gestapo pay them a visit.  The 1st amendment right that we have, here in the US, is all too easily taken for granted these days.

I would suggest that you find someone from Germany that was alive during those times so you can get a first hand account.  I'm not talking about reading it from a book, either.  I mean do it face-to-face so that you can watch them shudder as you make them relive memories that were probably better left buried.

So, before you go insulting an entire nation, do some research.

Watching the History Channel does not count towards this.

Carry On.

 

[Die Hard]

I suggest you read some books instead of listening to the excuses of the people who elected Hitler and the Nazis to power. Of course after the war no one seemed to have been Nazis or supported the regime or helped build Hitler's war machine. Like Churchill said, the German people were guilty of moral cowardice.

Ich frage euch: Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg? Wollt ihr ihn, wenn nötig, totaler und radikaler, als wir ihn uns heute überhaupt erst vorstellen können? ... Nun, Volk, steh auf und Sturm brich los!

Like I said, I have very little or no sympathy for the German people in WWII. Asking for it was never more clear cut than that.

[VonMessa]

I suggest you read some books instead of listening to the excuses of the people who elected Hitler and the Nazis to power. Of course after the war no one seemed to have been Nazis or supported the regime or helped build Hitler's war machine. Like Churchill said, the German people were guilty of moral cowardice.

Ich frage euch: Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg? Wollt ihr ihn, wenn nötig, totaler und radikaler, als wir ihn uns heute überhaupt erst vorstellen können? ... Nun, Volk, steh auf und Sturm brich los!

Like I said, I have very little or no sympathy for the German people in WWII. Asking for it was never more clear cut than that.

Propaganda.

Just like any other country has, even today.

You speak as if every German knew exactly what was going on from the beginning.  As if Hitler laid out his entire plan, including his "Final Solution" and posted it on a billboard.  Politicians never tell the truth of their ultimate political agenda.  If they did, there wouldn't be a single one to get elected.  Hitler played upon the battered ego of a demoralized nation with an economy in shambles with promises of recovery, prosperity and employment for all.  "A roast in every pot and a car in every garage."  It's not an accident that they are called Volks Wagons.  He presented himself in the guise of a "normal working stiff" (i.e. a peer and equal to everyone else) that was tired of being ruled by a monarchy by agreeing with the common folk that the Kaiser sucked and the power should be with the people.  Of course the public would go for that.  Who wouldn't?  Those were not the days of the internet and "freedom of  information" which we all take for granted. 

"Ich frage euch: Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg? Wollt ihr ihn, wenn nötig, totaler und radikaler, als wir ihn uns heute überhaupt erst vorstellen können? ... Nun, Volk, steh auf und Sturm brich los!"

The least you could do is translate, give a reference and date of the quote you are trying to use...

"I ask you: Do you want total war? If necessary, do you want a war more total and radical than anything that we can even imagine today?  Then, people , get up and let the storm break loose! "  -Joseph Goebbels  Febrary 14th, 1943

It was part of a massive speech delivered after the Nazi's had their tulips handed to them at Stalingrad and the true seriousness of the war was evident to everyone.  It was a push to keep the people's faith in their leadership of a crumbling Reich.  It was not at the beginning of the war, nor was used as motivation to start a war.  Quoting from Goebbels, out of context no less, to make your point, is utterly ridiculous. 

It has a familiar ring to it............

Kind of like........

"Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us. No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory. "   -President Franklin D. Roosevelt  December 8th, 1941

It took congress exactly 33 minutes to formally declare war on Japan.

Or...  How about President Bush invoking the above FDR speech after the September 11th attack in NYC? 

It's even worse since you weren't the first to use that tactic, and a shame that your implementation is not nearly as effective. 

The copycats always fall short..................  Your timing is off and the delivery horrendous. 

Keep trying, though...  Say it over and over again.  The Germans were all a bunch of filthy Nazi's.  Repetition and ignorance just might work   This may help for advice since you like quotes...

“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over” - Joseph Goebbels

To throw every German into the same category and lambaste them for the direction that the leaders of their country led them in is not any different of what you are accusing them of, yourself.  It makes you just as racist and bigoted. 

It provides a textbook example of how to make an bellybutton of one's self 

[Nashwan]

"They did it too" is not a valid excuse for either side, and you seriously need to read up on history: British bombs fell on German cities first.

No. German bombs fell on Poland on 1st September.

On 3 and 4 September 1939 the RAF bombed the harbors of Wilhelmshaven, Cuxhaven and Heligoland.

The first RAF bombing raid of the war was on 4 September. It was on German warships in those harbours. The instructions from the government stressed that no targets were to be bombed if they carried any risk of civilian casualties. As a result the RAF was ordered only to attack German warships that were a sufficient distance from land to rule out the possibility of civilians, even dock workers, being hit.

The Germans responded by bombing British naval bases including Scapa Flow.

The Germans attacked military targets in the Orkney Islands in mid March 1940. Unlike the RAF, they deliberately attacked land targets. A British civilian was killed.

The first British bombs to kill civilians fell on Mönchengladbach on the night of 11/12 May 1940 when the British conducted their first raid on German civilian industry and bombed the Ruhr Valley, including Cologne.

No. Beginning late on 9 May the Germans started bombing targets in France, Belgium and the Netherlands. The US ambassador to France reported being woken by German bombs in Paris.

The RAF responded on the night of the 11/12 May with attacks on German transport links bringing troops to the front. RAF bombing was confined to road and rail targets immediately behind the German lines, to the west of the Rhine. RAF bombing was of similar nature to the attacks by Germany, but much smaller in scale.

It's worth pointing out that the Germans managed to kill 60 of their own civilians in a mistaken attack on Freiburg on 10 May, the Luftwaffe mistaking the town for Dijon.

On May 15, 1940; the Air Ministry authorized Air Marshal Charles Portal to attack targets in the Ruhr, including oil plants and other civilian industrial targets which aided the German war effort, such as blast furnaces (which at night were self-illuminating).

And that was a direct response to the German bombing of Rotterdam on the 14 May that killed 900 Dutch civilians.

The timeline is perfectly clear. On 1 September 1939 the Germans began mass bombing of Poland. On 3 September Britain entered the war and restricted its bombing to German warships at sea.

The Germans went on to bomb Norway and the British maintained the same rules of engagement. The Germans then attacked France, Belgium and the Netherlands and the RAF began bombing in support of the army. The Germans area bombed Rotterdam and the British broadened their attacks to military-industrial targets elsewhere in Germany.

The Germans then escalated further, from light attacks on precise targets to carpet bombing British cities.

The RAF killed about 350 German civilians in 1940. The Luftwaffe killed about 290 British civilians in July 1940, over 1,000 in August, nearly 7,000 in September. By the end of 1940 they'd killed about 20,000 British civilians.

If you want to place blame for the massive aerial attacks of WW2, place it where it belongs. The British started the war with the decision that they would undertake no action that risked civilian casualties. They got to area bombing cities by following where the Luftwaffe had led.

[Die Hard]

Propaganda.

Just like any other country has, even today.

You speak as if every German knew exactly what was going on from the beginning.  As if Hitler laid out his entire plan, including his "Final Solution" and posted it on a billboard.  Politicians never tell the truth of their ultimate political agenda.  If they did, there wouldn't be a single one to get elected. 

Yeah... The German people had no idea what they were voting for...




Mein Kampf was published in 1925 and Volume 2 in 1926.




Their sword will become our plow, and from the tears of war the daily bread of future generations will grow.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

The [Nazi party] should not become a constable of public opinion, but must dominate it. It must not become a servant of the masses, but their master!
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

The great masses of the people will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

Was there any form of filth or profligacy, particularly in cultural life, without at least one Jew involved in it? If you cut even cautiously into such an abscess, you found, like a maggot in a rotting body, often dazzled by the sudden light - a kike!
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

In actual fact the pacifistic-humane idea is perfectly all right perhaps when the highest type of man has previously conquered and subjected the world to an extent that makes him the sole ruler of this earth… Therefore, first struggle and then perhaps pacifism.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

Germany will either be a world power or will not be at all.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

The art of leadership. . . consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention. . . . The leader of genius must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belonged to one category.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

Sooner will a camel pass through a needle's eye than a great man be 'discovered' by an election.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

Mankind has grown strong in eternal struggle, and only in eternal peace does it perish.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

Nature . . . puts living creatures on this globe and watches the free play of forces. She then confers the master's right on her favourite child, the strongest in courage and industry . . . The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

Blood mixture and the result drop in the racial level is the sole cause of the dying out of old cultures; for men do not perish as a result of lost wars, but by the loss of that force of resistance which is continued only in pure blood. All who are not of good race in this world are chaff.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

Any alliance whose purpose is not the intention to wage war is senseless and useless.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

From millions of men . . . one man must step forward who with apodictic force will form granite principles from the wavering idea-world of the broad masses and take up the struggle for their sole correctness, until from the shifting waves of a fre thought-world there will arise a brazen cliff of solid unity in faith and will.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

Armies for the preservation of peace do not exist; they exist only for the triumphant exertion of war.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

For there is one thing we must never forget… the majority can never replace the man. And no more than a hundred empty heads make one wise man will an heroic decision arise from a hundred cowards.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf




Hitler's Speech in Munich, September 1930

It is a fight for an idea - a Weltanschanung: and in the forefront stands a fundamental principle: Men do not exist for the State, the State exists for men. First and far above all else stands the idea of the people: the State is a form of organization of this people, and the meaning and the purpose of the State are through this form of organization to assure the life of the people. And from this there arises a new mode of thought and thus necessarily a new political method.

We say: a new mode of thought. Today our whole official political outlook is rooted in the view that the State must be maintained because the State in itself is the essential thing; we, on the other hand, maintain that the State in its form has a definite purpose to fulfill and the moment that it fails to fulfill its purpose the form stands condemned. Above everything stands the purpose to maintain the nation's life - that is the essential thing and one should not speak of a law for the protection of the State but for the protection of the nation: it is of this protection that one must think.... In the place of this rigid formal organization - the State - must be set the living organism - the people. Then all action is given a new untrammelled freedom: all the formal fetters which can today be imposed on men become immoral directly they fail to maintain the people, because that is the highest purpose in life and the aim of all reasonable thought and action.

If today our action employs among its different weapons that of Parliament, that is not to say that parliamentary parties exist only for parliamentary ends. For us Parliament is not an end in itself, but merely a means to an end . . . we are not on principle a parliamentary party - that would be a contradiction of our whole outlook - WE ARE A PARLIAMENTARY PARTY BY COMPULSION, UNDER CONSTRAINT, AND THAT COMPULSION IS THE CONSTITUTION. The Constitution compels us to use this means. It does not compel us to wish for a particular goal, it only prescribes a way - a method, and, I repeat, we follow this way legally, in accordance with the Constitution: by the way laid down through the Constitution we advance towards the purposes which we have set before us.

Never can Constitutions determine for all time the content of a purpose, especially when this content is not identical with the vital rights of a people. If today the Constitution admits for its protection laws which are headed, 'Laws for the Protection of the Republic,' then it is demonstrated that the most which our present Constitution can prescribe is nothing but the protection and the maintenance of a form, and that does not touch the maintenance of the nation, of a people. This purpose is therefore free: this is the goal which we proclaim and to which we shall attain. . .

From blood, authority of personality, and a fighting spirit springs that value which alone entitles a people to look around with glad hope, and that alone is also the condition for the life which men then desire. And when that is realized, then that too is realized for which today the political parties strive: prosperity, happiness of the individual, family-life, etc. First will come honor and then freedom, and from both of these happiness, prosperity, life: in a word, that state of things will return which we Germans perhaps dimly saw before the War, when individuals can once more live with joy in their hearts because life has a meaning and a purpose, because the close of life is then not in itself the end, since there will be an endless chain of generations to follow: man will know that what we create will not sink into Orcus but will pass to his children and to his children's children. And so this victory which we have just won is nothing else than the winning of a new weapon for our fight.... IT IS NOT FOR SEATS IN PARLIAMENT THAT WE FIGHT, BUT WE WIN SEATS IN PARLIAMENT IN ORDER THAT ONE DAY WE MAY BE ABLE TO LIBERATE THE GERMAN PEOPLE....

Do not write on your banners the word 'Victory': today that word shall be uttered for the last time. Strike through the word 'Victory' and write once more in its place the word which suits us better - the word 'Fight.'

[Die Hard]

Nashwan, I was addressing this inaccuracy by Plawranc: "the fact that Britain did not start hitting German cities until bombs fell on London?"

[Nashwan]

Nashwan, I was addressing this inaccuracy by Plawranc: "the fact that Britain did not start hitting German cities until bombs fell on London?"

To a large extent that's true. Until mid September 1940 the RAF bomber crews were under orders to attack precise military/industrial targets or bring their bombs back. The city itself was never the object of the attack.

The Germans began attacking British cities in September 1940. The raids were aimed at the cities themselves rather than any precise targets.

It wasn't until mid December 1940 that the RAF carried out their first area attack, where the city itself was a target.