Author Topic: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI  (Read 3891 times)

Offline Ardy123

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2010, 11:04:30 PM »
It all depends who is in it. If its kappa or BiPolar, and your not in a spit 16, your as good as dead. That being said, thats 2 players out to thousands, so the rest, well the majority will just yank that stick back as hard as they can until it has no e and no place to go.
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2010, 11:18:25 PM »
If its kappa or BiPolar, and your not in a spit 16, your as good as dead.

Hmmm... had an extended fight against kappa last weekend.  I was in an F6F-5.  I did lose but it was an epic fight.

In fact, in the end he got a hit that killed my engine.  Then as I was attempting to ditch he finished me off.  I was hoping he'd let me ditch after the fight we had as a show of respect.  Regardless of that I saluted him then and will agian.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 11:21:56 PM by BaldEagl »
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Offline Slash27

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2010, 11:34:35 PM »
I watched that one from my perch. Went on for quite a spell.

Offline grizz441

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2010, 11:35:39 PM »
Hmmm... had an extended fight against kappa last weekend.  I was in an F6F-5.  I did lose but it was an epic fight.

In fact, in the end he got a hit that killed my engine.  Then as I was attempting to ditch he finished me off.  I was hoping he'd let me ditch after the fight we had as a show of respect.  Regardless of that I saluted him then and will agian.

He was probably hoping you'd auger/bail to the tower as a show of respect, but to no avail.   ;)

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2010, 11:53:50 PM »
I watched that one from my perch. Went on for quite a spell.

Were you in the LA?  I did adjust slighly each time it appeared to be approaching.  I commented afterward that I thought the LA would interfere but didn't.  I was grateful that we were able to continue without inteference.
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2010, 12:00:32 AM »
Hmmm... had an extended fight against kappa last weekend.  I was in an F6F-5.  I did lose but it was an epic fight.

In fact, in the end he got a hit that killed my engine.  Then as I was attempting to ditch he finished me off.  I was hoping he'd let me ditch after the fight we had as a show of respect.  Regardless of that I saluted him then and will agian.

I enjoy fighting them, always fun but here... try it with a k4...

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Offline Slash27

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2010, 12:28:53 AM »
Were you in the LA?  I did adjust slighly each time it appeared to be approaching.  I commented afterward that I thought the LA would interfere but didn't.  I was grateful that we were able to continue without inteference.

That was me, staying out till something that needed killing wandered by.

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2010, 01:42:16 AM »
If only HTC created for us a clipped version of the Spitfire Mk. XIV... Also a clipped 1943 Spitfire Mk. Vc? :noid

You can find lots of clipped Vbs, but Vc's are a bit tougher to find.   Clipped XIV's were postwar
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Offline Yarbles

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2010, 05:35:14 AM »
The spit 16's biggest weakness is the slow speed turn rate.

The scrub noob pilots that fly it just can't handle more than 2/3 sustained turns.  Before they run out of E and start stalling.  

I will take a spit 8/9 over it all the time.  The 16 is comparable to a Brewster in that you don't want it milling around in a furball but get it strictly 1 vs 1 and you can exploit its weaknesses fairly easily.  This is down to the average persons bad SA rather than crying for it to be perked.

Supposing you don't want to learn the skils to defeat it. Isn't it just much easier to moan about it on here and try and get it perked ? :D

TBH I dont fly it anymore except with the bombs as the 9 and 8 are better and the 14 is miles more fun. The 9 seems to be the best in a one on one and the 8 is more stable. I would only go back to the 16 if my rudder pedals broke.

I wish we had a later war 9 with a bit more power which I guess would be identical to an unclipped 16. Imagine the whingeing  :uhoh :D

I should think it would be easy enough to model.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 05:47:55 AM by Yarbles »
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2010, 05:49:10 AM »
You can find lots of clipped Vbs, but Vc's are a bit tougher to find.   Clipped XIV's were postwar

Mk XII is needed....  :D
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Offline Yarbles

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2010, 05:56:42 AM »
Looking at the Stats there are about 12 unperked planes commonly flown as fighters with better K/D's than the 16 including the Nik,  La7 and KI84. All this stuff about perking it is just people over estimating themselves again isn't it and wanting to blame something for their lack of performance  :frown:

I would say to the whingers someone must be killing the Noobs in their 16's its just not you  ;)

If you respect the plane not the pilot the one I fear most of the unperked is the Nikki becase of all that cannon to spray and or HO with even if the pilot is a rubbish shot.  Its the first plane I landed 4 kills in and I hadn't run out of ammo.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 06:01:01 AM by Yarbles »
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Offline Glen69

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2010, 06:23:29 AM »
spit16s eh!? They pretty much always go for the Head On.  :noid
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Offline Plazus

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2010, 10:12:07 AM »
spit16s eh!? They pretty much always go for the Head On.  :noid

And just about 95% of those who fly in the MAs will HO- regardless of the situation. There are people here on the forums who claim they never HO, yet I get HOed by them on a regular basis. Never expect a fair fight in the MAs.

And with that said, whenever I come across a Spit 16, I never engage unless he is low on E. I fly the P38 a lot, so it may be a different fight if youre flying a Spit 8 or 9. Otherwise youre fate is sealed if you fight it on his terms. If I see a Spit 16 with more E than myself, I will seek a way to gain some separation first before engaging. When engaged, I will try to stall out the Spit 16 as best I can so that I can flop over and shoot it. Make him fight his engine torque. With his nose high and low on airspeed, the engine torque will pull the Spit 16 to the left and as such, if the pilot fights it too much, he will careen out of control. When the plane stalls, I then swoop in for the kill.
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Offline Letalis

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2010, 01:02:20 PM »
My *ahem* 2 cents:
Weaknesses: The Spit 16 does have two basic weaknesses IMO though the latter is really a matter of skill.  Primary weakness: Toughness.  Even though a zeke catches fire easier, when I'm low on ammo I target Spits.  Those dainty wings are all too happy to pop off- and oh it is beautiful.  Secondary weakness: Short clip.  While many pilots can get several kills with Spits the clip IS a little on the scanty side.  The desire to line up a "good" shot only lengthens the amount of time exposed to other enemies in the area. Combined with its lack of toughness a Spit is especially vulnerable when "sealing the deal."  

Opinion:  The 16 is indeed "easy mode" in terms of maneuverability- it is an amazing point and click machine that has a major edge over virtually every aircraft in the game (speed, turn, climb, roll). It seems to do everything very well short of running down the speed demons.  The problem with all Spits is that you are always one ping away from dead meaning you can't sacrifice even the smallest snapshot without seeing your cartoon pilot life flash before your eyes...and as we all know, in the MA  :cry happens.  So while the 16 may be "easy mode"  in terms of getting shots, it is "insane mode" when it comes to surviving them and requires a superior level of SA to actually land kills. It does seem that despite their wide use, 16s land proportionally fewer kills then other LW rides. You can create shots with virtually any fighter in the game but after pilot SA, aircraft survivability is what makes or breaks a k/d ratio.  (And yes, in general it seems the average 16 driver is below par.)

Relative to the 14: The 14 may be better in terms of climb and speed but the 16 has big advantages in the areas of stability, turn and roll.  Since I consider speed the single most important factor for fighters (allowing engagement at the time/place of your choosing) it is hard for me to argue against placing a lower perk value on the 14 relative to the 16 even if it is an inferior furballer. Both aircraft are beasts with the 14 requiring more time to master. Given the relative parity of these two aircraft in the hands of the average pilot it seems logical to me to either attach a very modest perk cost to the 16. (IE 1-2 points) Perhaps better yet, unperk the 14 and have the MA cope with a few lethal K4 drivers switching to the 14.

Tactics:  I like American iron and most of my AH kills have come in the 47,F6F and 38 (in that order). With the exception of speed, the Spit16 generally holds the same turn and climb advantages over the entire US planeset minus the Wildcat and Brew.  My best advice for dealing with Spits.
1.  In virtually any ride it is a bad omen if you fly UNDER a Spit to engage it 1v1.  Chances are you will never hold any initiative in the coming engagement unless you are that rare "uber pilot" or the Spit makes a big mistake.
2. Fly with a friend.  A good Spit16 driver will probably beat a good 47 driver in a co-E engagement.  You cannot simply run away from a Spit every time you see one Co-E. My theory: (With speed being equal) As the number of aircraft in an engagement increases (and the SA level of the average pilot is exceeded) the premium on turn performance you would see in a 1v1 shifts to the benefits of toughness and firepower. Even though it is natural to expect Spits to be dominant in large furballs, US planes seem to hold their own just fine since they can both take a hit and spray lead for 30 seconds or more.
3.  In many vs many go with the jink not the break.  If you find a Spit trailing your Jug 600 out and he is not closing, yes you may die.  :confused: ....  but consider jinking instead of turning or attempting to force an overshoot.  I think this for a few reasons. A. You present the smallest possible target profile. This is a common Spit mistake, they are pulling away in a climb 1.0 out but send some tracers by their cockpit and they perform a break turn exposing the whole of that fragile wing to your mercy. B. Regardless of whether you make him overshoot you just dumped E that you will not get back any time soon.  In a many v many this is bad. The Spit has a VERY effective rudder and much less inertia than typical US rides allowing a smart Spit driver to dump E faster when traveling a straight line.  Rarely will a Spit blow by you completely, usually a scissors is in order. The problem here is that the Spit turns better slow and has much better roll performance than US rides at typical slow scissor speeds (90-200kts).  Against an F6F this is especially pronounced. C. He has a short clip, even if he manages to kill you chances are if you're doing a proper jink (tracing tiny squares with your flight path seems to work well) he has wasted so much ammo as to make him combat ineffective against your remaining buds.  D. You're lining his fragile fighter up for an easy shot any green icon should want. Z. In a hypothetical conga line on the deck consisting of say 6 Jugs alternating with 6 spits spaced 600 apart, the Spits should disappear faster than the Jugs.  If said line is heading toward friendly territory you've just dragged several fixated Spits to their doom.  :cheers:
4.  345 is a special number. It is approximately the speed of the Spit 16 on the deck.  An aircraft that can sustain this speed can withdraw from a Spit horde so long as it doesn't need to accelerate to get there. FOr US rides this means the ability to DIVE for acceleration.  Most US aircraft have superior high-speed handling, if a Spit tries to follow a very fast dive, gaining the upper hand is possible. Early recognition is key. If there are 3 co-alt Spitxteens with your Jug it may be time to evaluate your current skill set and withdraw. The whines on 200 will most definitely not reflect that you may be missing part, are outnumbered, bingo fuel or out of ammo, only that you are a coward without honor.  This translates roughly into "Come back so we can have an easy kill." Learn to enjoy it.  If you want to furball, turn around, if you feel like living it's your 15 bucks.            
5. Last and most disturbing scenario. You are low, Spit16 on your 6 and closing at a controlled rate.  In a Hellcat the 6 view sucks, thus it is difficult to accept a faster, more agile aircraft on your 6 and OUT of sight than in the Jug.  Altitude permitting (800 ft+ for me) you can induce a spin and hope for the overshoot.  The spin move will probably get you nailed at least a little bit but there is the chance that hits will be so distributed around your aircraft that you will not suffer catastrophic damage. In the 51,47,F4U,38 you have a fair chance of actually being able to look back at where the bad guy is pointing his guns.  This takes a lot of time but after enough looking down the barrel you will see what a proper gun solution looks like in a tail chase.  Depending on range and ballistics (IE a N1K 800-1000 out) you actually have good chances with "See and Avoid", actually dodging bullets after firing.  This is obviously not a winning technique if the con is overtaking but for a good overshoot you probably want him within your turn radius. (This depends on speed, faster=bigger)  Chop throttle FIRST.  The con knows something is up when you roll but slowing due to throttle will delay recognition.  Then go about roll, pull, flaps etc.  Include rudder inputs for increased speed decay.  US aircraft are very stable and with proper rudder a light Jug can virtually hang at 80 knots.  Getting a shot after the overshoot is often just as hard as forcing one and your options are fewer now. But! the odds are, at least momentarily, better than when he was on your 6.
6.  They are all Spit 16s. MkVIII and up I like a 16. Unless you have a magic method for measuring energy states, treat that IX like a XVI and accept the safety margin.  There will always be more Spits later.
7. Don't grab a wolf by the ears.  If you can help it, don't slow down for a shot on a Spit, regardless of whether you are in a BnZ ride or not.  If you nail him great, but everyone misses and when you do it is guaranteed by Murphy that the 16 driver is good enough to get around on you.
8. Know thy enemy.  Flying the Spit16 offline and in the MA a little bit vs maneuvering targets gives a good feel of just how careful you should be with them.  They are not great long range deflection shooters nor do they have a big clip.  Flying the Spits will define where your best odds are in the flight envelope, just please, don't turn into one of THEM.  :old:  

Obviously, Spit killing is near and dear to my heart or I wouldn't have written this book^^^
Kill'em dead!  :salute

« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 01:37:45 PM by Letalis »
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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Fighting the Spitfire Mk XVI
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2010, 01:12:30 PM »
The 14 is faster, climbs better, and out accelerates the 16.

Heck, a Spit 14 is only @ 8kias slower (otd) than a 109K, similar acceleration, out turns it and can climb with it.

Methinks you don't fly the Spit 14 that much.

It is a beast down low and an absolute monster high alt.

Snail covered it well. The 14 is extremely unstable, rolls poorly, and is about as strong and sturdy as a toothpick. The 16 is a Jack of all trades plane that rolls extremely well, climbs almost on par with K4, can dive well, and is an extremely stable gun platform at low speeds. While it does fall apart like the rest of them, I think the 16 is much easier to fly than the 14.


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« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 01:18:33 PM by TonyJoey »