Merge Tactics

[ink]

Ok said I would not continue this topic in the Dueling ladder thread.


so here is my Idea's of why the "textbook" merge is no good.

First why do we duel?   

I suppose it is different reasons for all of us, but I bet the thrill of competition...In something we enjoy doing IE cartoon Pie-lit
 is right up there in the reason, we DA or join the dueling ladder, to test our skills against others, and to be able to learn how to kill the red guy, as fast as possible, The DA is a training ground for the MA's.
if every fight in the MA was like the DA you will find yourself getting ganged and in the tower fast as....well you get my point....
so with this reasoning,  Would I be safe to say that EVERYONE who Duels wants to kill his opponent?
 and would be happy if they could do it as fast as possible?
Imagine you are about to face a con you know it is Grizz, or some other Ace,  Would you not want to be able to kill them with in the first turn? with out a HO, with them having NO gun solution?
say this is in the MA's and you are deep in nme territory and there is a gonga line of cons coming for you, if you merge with them the same way as the "textbook" merge, well..... we know where that leads...coffee in tower....

but you on the other hand,you Know the merge is where it's at, this will decide the fight, so you merge with every one of these cons coming to you with the intent of
A - avoiding the HO
B- killing them before the next guy gets here

Depending on what the con does,
is he coming straight at you in a classic HO?
is he vectoring his plane to get below you?
is he climbing with speed or de-throttling?

these things will decide where and how you position yourself at the actual "merge".

lets say it just so happens it's a rare HO....

or "textbook" merge  he is flying straight at you slightly banked to the right (his left) i place him in the center of my forward right screen,
as I pass the con, I am already turning into him and Watching where he goes, This will allow me to decide what move I will do next,
was he full throttle passing me?
did he start to bank up-down-flat turn...

the rest is well....being able to land hits when needed, if ya cant do that, then the best merge in the world is squat.

[Ardy123]

here's a nice merge demo by Warkat. Remember him?

http://www.youtube.com/user/LordWarkat#p/u/16/psGuWKDX__o

[maddafinga]

Merge is one of my weakest areas IMO.  I lose more fights there than anywhere else.  I usually fly well enough to keep the bad guy from getting an advantage on me (usually) but when I hose the merge, I'm just flying on borrowed time.  I try to get lateral separation and lead turn usually, I don't too much care for the pass then move type of merge really, but when the con is diving you pretty much have to dive also or you're giving up angles right away.  Some of that can be counteracted somewhat by using lead turns, but if he turns a little to take your separation away while still diving,  and then you lead loop him, you've just given up a big chunk of angle right there.  If I'm fighting someone over and over, or different guys in the DA in informal 1v1s, I like to try out different stuff each fight.  I just haven't come up with anything that I feel like works consistently outside of the nose to nose and jockey for position merge.  It's a balancing act on trying to get separation and using a lead turn or loop, and not letting the bad guy take that separation away, while also trying not to give up too much e in the process. 

Just an area where I'm the most weak I think and need work.  Good topic Ink!

[uptown]

Merging in a duel situation is completely different then merging in the MA IMO. In a duel you only have 1 con to content with and keep an eye on. The MA on the other hand, you have to not only watch your guy but any others coming your way. The last thing i want to do when I'm outnumbered is to get to tight with one guy. If in a 51 I'd rather keep it fast and try to pull each one away by themselves to set up a better 1 on 1. If I don't do that then the planes like Spitfires and nikis and such would just turn me till I have nothing to work with.
I guess what I mean is, my merges in the MA all depend on what and how many I'm fighting. There is no set "do all" merge in that case. Dueling is harder for me because it's almost always in the same plane and fuel/ gun loadout as the other guy. That and i'm in those fights til the death where as the MA I can pull away and reset if need be...usually.

I've been trying to get out of the 51 more and into the 38 and am finding that the 38 seems to like a different, slower more vertical type of fight then what I'm used to. This also has had an effect on how I would merge with other planes.

[mechanic]

Ink, if you study some duelers you will notice alot of us don't just fly level into a crossing merge. Often both planes are using some form of lead turn and displacement prior to merge but the end result is still a nose-on-nose crossing merge. The old style of duel merge was more like what you describe, two planes fly level till they cross without dipping wingtips. Nowadays most often you will find alot more complex and tricky merge angles from people. That being true, the angle off approach is still a very dodgy tactic to employ in a DA merge. It's just asking for a quick death to not keep your nose on till flight paths cross. MA fighting is different, but the same priciples apply. Merging with cons in the Ma like you describe works, but only if the enemy is not sharp.

[2bighorn]

At merge speeds 300+ and proper offset (separation, either vertical, horizontal or both) you start your lead turn quite early, but not too early to get belly shot (timing is the key). Hard to get HOed that way either in DA or in MA.

As to why we merge in DA differently? Duels are more of a sport, some fairness is required. Besides, after certain skill level, HOer has minor advantage. If both would go for HO (jousting), duel would end up even before fight starts, so, pretty pointless.

[Ack-Ack]

If people are interested in improving their merge tactics, Rocketman's old merge lectures are a great resource.

Mastering the Merge

Even though it was written over 14 years ago for AW, it still pertains to AH.


ack-ack

[uptown]

Hey, thanks for the link Akak 

[WMLute]

If people are interested in improving their merge tactics, Rocketman's old merge lectures are a great resource.

Mastering the Merge

Even though it was written over 14 years ago for AW, it still pertains to AH.


ack-ack

I remember printing that out and reading it many, many times over 14 years ago trying to figure out how to fly.

I also remember doing a whole heck of a lot of hand wagglin' trying to wrap my brains around it.

Great stuff.

[maddafinga]

If people are interested in improving their merge tactics, Rocketman's old merge lectures are a great resource.

Mastering the Merge

Even though it was written over 14 years ago for AW, it still pertains to AH.


ack-ack

I remember when he was writing that.  Talked about it at length when he was working it up.  He was helping me learn by killing me over and over and over and over again... 

[maddafinga]

At merge speeds 300+ and proper offset (separation, either vertical, horizontal or both) you start your lead turn quite early, but not too early to get belly shot (timing is the key). Hard to get HOed that way either in DA or in MA.

As to why we merge in DA differently? Duels are more of a sport, some fairness is required. Besides, after certain skill level, HOer has minor advantage. If both would go for HO (jousting), duel would end up even before fight starts, so, pretty pointless.

Bighorn, I want to hook up with you again one of these days and work on more merge and fight type of stuff.  The stuff we've done before has been pretty helpful to me in the ma and in duels too. 

I thought in this thread we were discussing only da merges though, obviously, if you go that nose in to someone in the ma, you'll get hoed more often than not.

[ink]

"...By initiating the turn into your opponent, you have gained "angles" on him..."

(quoted from the link Ack-Ack put up.)

this sounds an awful lot like what I describe.

Merging in a duel situation is completely different then merging in the MA IMO. In a duel you only have 1 con to content with and keep an eye on. The MA on the other hand, you have to not only watch your guy but any others coming your way. The last thing i want to do when I'm outnumbered is to get to tight with one guy. If in a 51 I'd rather keep it fast and try to pull each one away by themselves to set up a better 1 on 1. If I don't do that then the planes like Spitfires and nikis and such would just turn me till I have nothing to work with.
I guess what I mean is, my merges in the MA all depend on what and how many I'm fighting. There is no set "do all" merge in that case. Dueling is harder for me because it's almost always in the same plane and fuel/ gun loadout as the other guy. That and i'm in those fights til the death where as the MA I can pull away and reset if need be...usually.

I've been trying to get out of the 51 more and into the 38 and am finding that the 38 seems to like a different, slower more vertical type of fight then what I'm used to. This also has had an effect on how I would merge with other planes.

you should think of the DA as training for MA, thats what I do, and I deal with a merge no matter where I am the same, the intent of making a kill with out putting myself in there gun solution.

Ink, if you study some duelers you will notice alot of us don't just fly level into a crossing merge. Often both planes are using some form of lead turn and displacement prior to merge but the end result is still a nose-on-nose crossing merge. The old style of duel merge was more like what you describe, two planes fly level till they cross without dipping wingtips. Nowadays most often you will find alot more complex and tricky merge angles from people. That being true, the angle off approach is still a very dodgy tactic to employ in a DA merge. It's just asking for a quick death to not keep your nose on till flight paths cross. MA fighting is different, but the same priciples apply. Merging with cons in the Ma like you describe works, but only if the enemy is not sharp.

thats how it was in DA, when I first joined and I see a lot still doing it, I have dueled Grizz and he usually does not do it, when I saw the fights with TJ I was surprised by the Merge's.

[TnDep]

If you master the flat turn merge like only a few in the game you get the first shot always, just depends on your gunnery.  The basic text book merge we all know of is really good if you know how to work your throttle and turn in early for the next turn.  As far as killing your enemy quick and to the point I believe just takes a lot of practice and many 1000s of duels to get your throttle, flap management, elevator trim, gunnery, and most important angles down.  Duel a top 10 stick in the game 100 times and watch there angles most people don't even understand the concept of angles until they do that. 

[BaldEagl]

"...By initiating the turn into your opponent, you have gained "angles" on him..."

(quoted from the link Ack-Ack put up.)

this sounds an awful lot like what I describe.

Easier said than done.  The problem is that as you're gaining seperation your opponent will keep his nose on you gaining angles while negating your attempt to seperate.  Double trouble.

As I said in the other thread, that's why DA merges are almost always diving merges.  The only way to gain angles is to get below your opponent then nose up losing speed as he's gaining it and (in the MA) at the same time giving him a high deflection shot to try to track.

In dissimilar aircraft you can do what you say, particularily if you're in the better turning plane which I know you usually are.  In a similar plane match-up that will get you killed against a good stick.

[TonyJoey]

My personal experience after countless duels is that a tight immelman can/will beat a flat turn merge more times than not. I think that it gives you another dimension to utilize. It also gives you a bit more E to work with. The trick in mastering immel vs flat turn is either avoiding the shot that you sacrifice to your opponent if you try to rope him, or pulling tight enough to enter a scissors type fight.