Author Topic: Merge Tactics  (Read 3134 times)

Offline mechanic

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11307
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2010, 09:24:22 PM »
If you turn away and offer a shot instead of flying head on is it really a merge or is it a defence move? The guy shooting is in attack, the guy turning to set up angles is in defence for the moment the planes will cross, there is no merge is there? Do we define 'merge' as any time when the planes cross paths for the first time, or define it as when both pilot are remaining in attack posture untill 3-9 overshoot?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 09:26:52 PM by mechanic »
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2010, 03:04:10 PM »
If you turn away and offer a shot instead of flying head on is it really a merge or is it a defence move? The guy shooting is in attack, the guy turning to set up angles is in defence for the moment the planes will cross, there is no merge is there? Do we define 'merge' as any time when the planes cross paths for the first time, or define it as when both pilot are remaining in attack posture untill 3-9 overshoot?

I would say that if someone turned his back on another at same alt it is dumb... :D

seriously  I would define the "merge" as when two cons attack one another, the merge begins  at least 1.5 out from one another, does not matter the alt of ether con,
when I say get angles before the merge I am referring to the 1.5 distance of nme con, getting those angles before the crossing of the two planes, rolling, going inverted confusing the con as to what your intentions are.

If he is coming straight at you, and when you pass each other if he is still straight, but you have vectored your plane in a position of angles you are already in a "turn" now I don't mean a hard E sapping turn, unless that is what it takes to pull on the inside if nme, if he just goes straight you can point your nose up and gain ALT, and set up for when they bank back, if when you pass them and they bank hard to come around, you will already be in a position and it will be a lot less time for you to get the shot, while denying them a shot.

Offline sky25

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 530
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2010, 08:25:32 PM »
If people are interested in improving their merge tactics, Rocketman's old merge lectures are a great resource.

Mastering the Merge

Even though it was written over 14 years ago for AW, it still pertains to AH.


ack-ack



Excellent article. I found out about several mistakes I am making from reading it.. Thanks Ack-Ack :salute


sky25  "Vsky" In The Game

Offline warhed

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2010, 09:44:04 PM »
TonyJoey's quote is golden  :aok

But in the absence of a proper counter, if one masters a really good, tight, flat turn merge, especially with an opponent intent on a fight in the phone booth, the flat turn will achieve and considerable advantage if followed up with proper guns and verticle moves. One can use this tactic up to say...30 degress of roll angle, meaning if you get under you can match the turn but stay flatter...ie UNDER the bandits turn. But if you go more than 30 deg then you are doing the "pitch back" which is not a flat turn merge.

As for multiple con engagment in the MA:
When I merge 1 vs many in a conga line or closly grouped (flying the 109k4) I will shallow dive enough to get 400+ and pull all of them around to my six with easy turns (sometimes faking a break turn). Then, let the slow ones drop back and fight the fast ones in a running scissor. This way I can keep them all behind me, in sight and at a disadvantage. If I were to turn hard and fight it would be istant gang bang. But keeping close enough, always jiving as bait and staying in shallow climb and scissoring for overshoots I can sometimes out smart 3 or 4 bandits.

When is your signature "Cross-controlled Barrel Roll Merge" appropriate?   :D
warhed
=Wings of Terror=

"Give me sheep, or give me death!"

Offline Sloehand

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2010, 10:07:40 PM »
I remember printing that out and reading it many, many times over 14 years ago trying to figure out how to fly.

I also remember doing a whole heck of a lot of hand wagglin' trying to wrap my brains around it.

Great stuff.

(Bypassing other posts after Lute's)
This is very good stuff.  As I learned and taught it, there are only three types of combat merges: "Positive", "Negative" and "Neutral" to put simple names on them.  Each is defined by the relative E state of the opponents, but the name relates to whichever pilot is considering it.  

In other words, I'm in a "Positive" merge with an opponent if I have a significant advantage in E state over him, primarily (but not exclusively) considering relative altitudes.  Conversely, he would be in a "Negative" merge from his viewpoint.  If our E states are relatively equal in terms of altitude and airspeed, then we are essentially Co-E, or both of us are in a "Neutral" merge.

Why is this important?  Because, for each type of merge the initial objective of the pilot is different, and there are different ACM that should be performed (and some that should not) in each situation.

Consider you are in a Positive merge (your bandit is in a Negative merge) [by the way, a merge does not automatically mean you are heading directly towards each other, but that you are closing in someway towards an engagement] then your initial objective is to close for a guns solution while MAINTAINING control and initiative of the fight until you reach it.  

If you are in a Negative merge, then you're ONLY initial objective is to achieve a Co-E state any way you can, BEFORE attempting to maneuver for a guns solution.  Assuming you have not been blindly jumped by a bandit at less than 2K, you should turn away to achieve separation or reduce the rate of closure.  At the same time you climb to try to achieve a Co-E state, which means gaining altitude.  When the bandit attacks during this (and depending upon A/C types, etc.) you do an avoidance ACM that will minimize your E loss (and possibly maximize his), then IF he hasn't made a drastic offensive ACM mistake that you can pounce on, you continue to climb for Co-Alt at a minimum.  Rinse and repeat as needed until you reach Co-E and can turn equally with him.
 
If you are Neutral then your objective is to LEAD the fight, meaning you plan and maneuver your approach into the merge (which in this case is often HO) so as to gain OODA Loop (look it up  :D) advantage over your opponent.  Or in other words, you want to Lead Turn first and best.  There are tricks, especially in the AH HO-centric world, to do this.

The ultimate goal is always to get the kill shot, but each type of merge requires different objectives to reach it.  If you know this, and fly accordingly, you won't be climbing up to bandits just to get killed or overshooting an easy kill to the same result.

There are more situational details that help define these merges and must be considered, and some specific manuevers to consider using in each, but this is the basic thumbnail explanation.
Jagdgeschwader 77

"You sleep safe in your beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do you harm."  - George Orwell
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Offline Agent360

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
      • http://troywardphotography.com
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2010, 10:40:55 PM »
If you turn away and offer a shot instead of flying head on is it really a merge or is it a defence move? The guy shooting is in attack, the guy turning to set up angles is in defence for the moment the planes will cross, there is no merge is there? Do we define 'merge' as any time when the planes cross paths for the first time, or define it as when both pilot are remaining in attack posture untill 3-9 overshoot?

Good point mechanic. My 2cents.

Merge:
1. When two planes (enemy or not) both pass inside the largest turn radius of the two planes.

If this is done neither plane can turn immediately to the others six.

It requires a second turn to engage.

2. When two planes pass within CLOSE range(3 plane lengths) and at the same altitude for the purpose of engaging into a 1v1 combat duel, where the fight continues within in close range until there is a victor.

Therefor, if the definition is not met, it is not a merge, but a "pass".

A "pass" is crossing the 3/9 line without entering the turn radius of the bandit.

Simple definition:
merge = close, denying separation
pass = separation, denying closure.




Offline killnu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3056
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2010, 10:47:45 PM »
this is getting way to technical for a game I play away from work....eekkk   dang engineering types
   
Karma, it follows you every where you go...

++The Blue Knights++

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2010, 12:06:46 AM »
this is getting way to technical for a game I play away from work....eekkk   dang engineering types
   

I was thinking the same thing :)

If I know the guy I'm merging with, I pass as close as I can.  If I don't know, I work to avoid the HO shot.

If it's a 109K, I figure the fight is going up.  If it's a Spit, most time it's going to be a flat turning fight.  That also applies to most N1Ks.  Ki-84 drivers tend to go vertical. The list goes on.  If it's a better stick then me, I'm in trouble.  Most times I do OK otherwise :)
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2010, 12:50:36 AM »
I was thinking the same thing :)

If I know the guy I'm merging with, I pass as close as I can.  If I don't know, I work to avoid the HO shot.

If it's a 109K, I figure the fight is going up.  If it's a Spit, most time it's going to be a flat turning fight.  That also applies to most N1Ks.  Ki-84 drivers tend to go vertical. The list goes on.  If it's a better stick then me, I'm in trouble.  Most times I do OK otherwise :)

 :lol

good way of looking at it, for me though, I am too competitive to think of it like this, the "if it's a better stick then me" does not work for me cuz I want to be the best there is, the best I can be, every time I fly I want to learn more, No I am not talking about the game as a "whole" I could care less about GV's, dropping bombs, pt boats, or any thing else, hell I think once in about 4 years I have flown out side a "fighter sortie"
and that was to up an Il2. :headscratch: ( I think)

I know the fight is usually won in the merge so I have set out to perfect the "merge".

Offline Glen69

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 59
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2010, 07:46:23 PM »
Trying to merge in the MA is the fastest way back to the tower.  :rolleyes:

Occationally i've been able to avoid the bullets from the head on, surviving after that still leaves me 50/50

No matter what sourses you read, every pilot reacts differently, it's all about guessing whats going to happen in the near future. Prediction skills will keep you alive the longest. ( and shooting back in the HO pass )
Do you really think we sit around here trying to find ways to piss off the customer base?
  :headscratch: Only the customers that squad up, mission up and take bases.

Offline JunkyII

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8428
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2010, 08:17:08 PM »
If you master the flat turn merge like only a few in the game you get the first shot always, just depends on your gunnery.  The basic text book merge we all know of is really good if you know how to work your throttle and turn in early for the next turn.  As far as killing your enemy quick and to the point I believe just takes a lot of practice and many 1000s of duels to get your throttle, flap management, elevator trim, gunnery, and most important angles down.  Duel a top 10 stick in the game 100 times and watch there angles most people don't even understand the concept of angles until they do that. 
If Im not too late to see your flat turn merge Im going to rope the crap out of you and have you begging for scraps below me while I BnZ you to death.


That is one thing I find about alot of the good duelers have.....a bunch of different merges. About a year or so ago I was dueling Grizz and he kept getting me with a flat turn merge.....I asked how do I beat it....he said either flat turn with to start scissors or E merge...I tried flat turning and he just E merged me....


Im horrible on the merge BTW....always set myself up for failure :(
DFC Member
Proud Member of Pigs on the Wing
"Yikes"

Offline TnDep

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1705
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2010, 11:12:09 PM »
If Im not too late to see your flat turn merge Im going to rope the crap out of you and have you begging for scraps below me while I BnZ you to death.


That is one thing I find about alot of the good duelers have.....a bunch of different merges. About a year or so ago I was dueling Grizz and he kept getting me with a flat turn merge.....I asked how do I beat it....he said either flat turn with to start scissors or E merge...I tried flat turning and he just E merged me....


Im horrible on the merge BTW....always set myself up for failure :(

me to Junk I'm still practicing but that's where I lose my fights at right now. 
~XO Top Gun~ Retired
When you think you know it all, someone almost always proves you wrong.  Always strive to be better then who you are as a person, a believer, a husband, a father, and a friend.  May peace be in your life and God Bless - TnDep

Offline SAJ73

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 595
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2010, 07:08:22 AM »
I know I need to practice my merges too, I am still at the point where I am experimenting with different styles of merge tactics. But I don't have the proper "3D skill" to see my mistakes, so it is hard to learn anything without proper trainers help..

I did a couple of duels together with a guy in DA a few weeks back, and he did a flat turn merge that I never quite figured out before I went boom two turns later.. I tried several different merge tactics, but the result was always coffee break in tower after a couple of turns.. Followed by a "Quack" in the txt box..  :confused:

When I merge in a duel situation with pre-agreed rules such as cold merge I go head on and merge by the book. But when in the MA's I never merge head on like that. I just try to stay fast and fly smart, it becomes a matter of staying alive first, getting a shot is second priority.
When in a DA duelling situation it is like bighorn said, alot more sport in it..
TheStig

Offline Dogtown

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 300
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2010, 07:50:51 AM »
Really Good Stuff.....ty everyone <S>
Soooo's I'm standing there i got my ......NM

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: Merge Tactics
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2010, 03:06:35 PM »
I know I need to practice my merges too, I am still at the point where I am experimenting with different styles of merge tactics. But I don't have the proper "3D skill" to see my mistakes, so it is hard to learn anything without proper trainers help..

I did a couple of duels together with a guy in DA a few weeks back, and he did a flat turn merge that I never quite figured out before I went boom two turns later.. I tried several different merge tactics, but the result was always coffee break in tower after a couple of turns.. Followed by a "Quack" in the txt box..  :confused:

When I merge in a duel situation with pre-agreed rules such as cold merge I go head on and merge by the book. But when in the MA's I never merge head on like that. I just try to stay fast and fly smart, it becomes a matter of staying alive first, getting a shot is second priority.
When in a DA duelling situation it is like bighorn said, alot more sport in it..



dont worry about dying in the MA's if you fly like that you will never push yourself or plane, and when it is time to get down and dirty you will not be able to, I would suggest that you fly to fight in the MA, and dont worry about dying.
 seriously I get mad at myself if I do not get killed, I want to see my burning wreckage.....BUT I have been flying like this since the beginning, around 04, and now 95% of the time I will easily win 1vs1 and a lot of times I can win 2-4 vs me.  if I flew worrying about dying I would never got to the level I am at.