Dive bombing discussion

[Oldman731]

Would that be dive bombing or high angle attack bombing? There is no way a P-47 could do a near vertical dive and survive becoming a lawn dart.

And your source for this is what?

- oldman

[Guppy35]

I remember a discussion on the BigWeek forums when Earl was talking about that, got a chuckle when some tried to tell Earl he was mistaken.

Speaking of which, I heard he had passed away, anyone know if this is true?

ack-ack

I haven't talked to Earl in a while.  His wife passed away a few years ago now.  The son of another 345th FS pilot is the historian for the 350th FG and he always shoots out an e-mail if anyone passes away.  Nothing on Earl.  I'll try and give him a call this week.

The blog for the 350th FG is a great spot with a ton of photos and info.  Good photos of Earl there.  

http://web.me.com/vizcarraguitars/350th_Fighter_Group_Blog/350th_FG_Blog/350th_FG_Blog.html

[Chalenge]

They often wired shut the dive brakes on them.

Urban legend and you should know better.

[Chalenge]

Once better performing fighters became operational - the Hellcats and Corsairs in the Pacific, the 38s, 47s, 51s and Typhoons in the ETO - there was no longer any need for a purpose-built dive bomber.

It wasnt that the need had suddenly vanished but because "close air support" was difficult to reliably coordinate with so much bad weather in the ETO. In the PTO CAS was used frequently and accept it or not the few dedicated attack aircraft the USAAF had were used throughout the war (MTO). North American had tried to fill a gap that they could see the military would have a need for but the appropriations channel in Washington decided to go a different route which was pushing all fighters into multi-role aircraft. This proved to be a better in execution than the British for instance (early in the war) that produced so many outstanding multi-role aircraft (for carriers) that were nothing of the sort (better at one than the other or great at one and disastrous at the other). You should note that the British and American navies thought that carriers would never be susceptible to dive-bombing attacks and yet that is exactly what happened.

I can think of at least one campaign in the Pacific that very definitely could have used the A-36.

[Guppy35]

Urban legend and you should know better.

LOL OK.  Well my mistake.  Robert Grunhagen's book on the Mustang, Roger Freeman's "Mustang at War" and William Hess's book on the Mustang, all reference the problems in stateside training units and with the A36 in the MTO where the dive brakes were not deploying equally on each side or at all causing problems that resulted in the A36 having the highest stateside loss rate in training and guys missing targets in the MTO due to being thrown off by the brakes not working correctly.  Wiring them shut was the recommendation.  One unit in the MTO quit using the dive brakes.  The 27th FG I believe finally solved the problem.

I figured that three fairly decent Mustang historians were worth referencing.

[Chalenge]

I have Gruenhagens book on the P-51 and that isnt in there. In fact quite to the contrary Gruenhagen states that the dive brakes proved to be succesful and the aircraft was a very accurate dive bomber. Now Im beginning to doubt the other two books have that in there except I know I read it 'somewhere' myself. It isnt true though.

The training accidents stemmed from personnel deploying the brakes while at high speed (or at least trying to). Thats not proper procedure and if you have ever flown a Mustang in AH you would know what happens if you come in at a steep angle and on the power. Procedures were reinforced in the pilots training and no further problems were encountered until they got to Africa. In Africa the problem was fear of AAA and not the dive brakes and the problem wasnt flying into the ground but releasing too high and missing.

Dive brakes were never wired shut and if thats in a book and suggested to be gospel I would reconsider its authors credibility.

By the way there is now a Friedkin Family Warbirds A-36A Mustang (featured in Challenge Publications July/August 2010 Warbirds International pg 38-39 ... its nearly the centerfold) flying. You might consider asking them about the legend and I am sure you will get straightened out quickly.

[Chalenge]

Looks dangerous alright.   

[Chalenge]

Jerry Scutts writes about the "American Stuka" and no mention of extra wires on the wing (admittedly its a short segment in the book):

http://books.google.com/books?id=U2OU-T8-s94C&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=American+Stuka&source=bl&ots=OUGnFKV0Nw&sig=A7i2H1ga7I23-wxn2kAJBIRvhUw&hl=en&ei=jZ5KTOL8B8XgnAfok7yCDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=American%20Stuka&f=false

[MiloMorai]

Dan, the dive brake were to be extended before the dive began. If they were extend once the dive had begun then there was the possibility of them not extended equally.

In the MTO, the A-36s were in such demand to fly missions that proper maintainance of the a/c could not be done. It would have been much easier to disable the hydraulic lines that operated the dive brakes.

@ oldman,
if the much lighter A-36 required dive brakes to keep it dive speed under 390mph, how did the P-47 keep its speed down? Level, the P-47 would do over 400kph so what would it be doing in a FULL power vertical, or near vertical, dive? The P-47 would descending at an angle near to which the Spit did, that is 60*, which is not dive bombing.

Who took the time to read the thread in the link I posted?

[Oldman731]

@ oldman,
if the much lighter A-36 required dive brakes to keep it dive speed under 390mph, how did the P-47 keep its speed down? Level, the P-47 would do over 400kph so what would it be doing in a FULL power vertical, or near vertical, dive? The P-47 would descending at an angle near to which the Spit did, that is 60*, which is not dive bombing.

My question was directed to your conclusion that "There is no way a P-47 could do a near vertical dive and survive becoming a lawn dart."  So far as I know it was not uncommon for P-47s do do vertical dives and survive.  I know a WWII P-47 pilot who at least claims he dive-bombed at full throttle in his P-47, and who survived that war and Viet Nam (where he flew SPADs) without becoming a lawn dart.  Persuing other literature, including P-47 manuals such as the one reprinted in Len Morgan's old book on the P-47, suggests that near-vertical bombing was commonly practiced in P-47s.

- oldman

[Guppy35]

I have Gruenhagens book on the P-51 and that isnt in there. In fact quite to the contrary Gruenhagen states that the dive brakes proved to be succesful and the aircraft was a very accurate dive bomber. Now Im beginning to doubt the other two books have that in there except I know I read it 'somewhere' myself. It isnt true though.

The training accidents stemmed from personnel deploying the brakes while at high speed (or at least trying to). Thats not proper procedure and if you have ever flown a Mustang in AH you would know what happens if you come in at a steep angle and on the power. Procedures were reinforced in the pilots training and no further problems were encountered until they got to Africa. In Africa the problem was fear of AAA and not the dive brakes and the problem wasnt flying into the ground but releasing too high and missing.

Dive brakes were never wired shut and if thats in a book and suggested to be gospel I would reconsider its authors credibility.

By the way there is now a Friedkin Family Warbirds A-36A Mustang (featured in Challenge Publications July/August 2010 Warbirds International pg 38-39 ... its nearly the centerfold) flying. You might consider asking them about the legend and I am sure you will get straightened out quickly.

Go read Grunhagen again.  I'll find the page numbers  for ya later.  Daughter getting married today.  No time to argue with ya right now

[MiloMorai]

Oldman, the pilot might have though he was doing a vertical dive.

Anyways read some reports by fighter pilots. They had to be VERY careful when diving after enemy a/c > terminal velocity was reached very quickly.

[Rino]

LOL OK.  Well my mistake.  Robert Grunhagen's book on the Mustang, Roger Freeman's "Mustang at War" and William Hess's book on the Mustang, all reference the problems in stateside training units and with the A36 in the MTO where the dive brakes were not deploying equally on each side or at all causing problems that resulted in the A36 having the highest stateside loss rate in training and guys missing targets in the MTO due to being thrown off by the brakes not working correctly.  Wiring them shut was the recommendation.  One unit in the MTO quit using the dive brakes.  The 27th FG I believe finally solved the problem.

I figured that three fairly decent Mustang historians were worth referencing.

     Apparently a very popular urban legend, Challenge should know better 

[Masherbrum]

Go read Grunhagen again.  I'll find the page numbers  for ya later.  Daughter getting married today.  No time to argue with ya right now

It isn't worth arguing with him.   

[uptown]

Go read Grunhagen again.  I'll find the page numbers  for ya later.  Daughter getting married today.  No time to argue with ya right now

Congrats on the daughter getting married