Author Topic: Dive bombing discussion  (Read 5972 times)

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2010, 09:05:49 PM »
Quiet the adults are having a discussion about history.
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Offline grizz441

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2010, 09:09:39 PM »
Quiet the adults are having a discussion about history.

Until you are proven wrong and you bolt from the discussion...per usual...like this --->  :bolt:

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2010, 09:11:54 PM »
Is that what you think? Next you will claim the entire world revolves around you and everyone cares only what you think.

Dream on little boy.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2010, 11:54:58 PM »
OK wedding is done, it went well, life is good etc :)

It appears that the 'wired shut' comment comes from William Hess's book "Fighting Mustang"  Chapter 2, "The Invader"

"The men of the A-36s had been told in the United States that their dive brakes would be all but useless and the best thing they could do was to wire them closed"

Roger Freeman's book "Mustang at War also references the not using the dive brakes. 

"The air brakes restricted speed built up in the dive but had a nasty habit of not extending equally due to imbalance of hydraulic pressures.  When this happened it was difficult to keep the aircraft aimed true at its target and there were instances of complete loss of control."

"At one time A-36 training was resulting in the highest accident rate per hours flying time of any other major combat aircraft in the USAAF."

"Although a calamitous test in the United States had resulted in recommendations that in dive bombing A36As that angle of descent be reduced to 70 degrees and because of inconsistency of operation, the brakes should not be used, the 27th Group kept very much to the original concept of attack."

"Modifications had largely overcome the dive-brake problems and the brakes were always extended for a near vertical dive."

Robert Gruenhagen  "Mustang-The Story of the P51 Fighter"

"Hydraulic control systems had not been developed sufficiently to allow extension of the brakes after high speed was attained.  In this configuration it was possible to achieve unequal extension of the brakes and some aircraft to roll which detracted from the pilots aiming procedure.  In service this created some difficulty when using dive brakes until pilot technique was developed."

"During the island campaigns, some of the units experienced difficulty with the dive brake systems on the A-36 and as a result, the airplane was reported to be unsatisfactory.  This was not a true evaluation however and when time was available for maintenance to rig and adjust the systems and pilot operating techniques were developed,, the dive brakes performed satisfactorily."

It would seem a fair assessment of things would be that initially there were problems, both in the States and when the A-36 first got into combat in the MTO, and that over time they were resolved. 

It appears the 'wired shut' comment comes from Hess.  Where his source for this was, I don't know.  It also appears the recommendation to not used the dive brakes was based on official testing that resulted in the loss of the test A-36 based on what Freeman writes.  Greunhagen refers to initial problems in the MTO.  All three talk about the problem being solved in time and the A-36 using them successfully.


I think it fair to say that the 'wired shut' comment as urban legend was a bit strong.  There seems to be some basis in the actual experiences of the A-36 from it's growing pains to combat.  In terms of the comments of the 27th FG pilot, Freeman supports that in his comment about the 27th FG staying the course, so to speak in terms of the dive bombing technique.


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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2010, 11:58:33 PM »
BTW, nothing in any discussion here is ever worth my lying about just to prove someone wrong.  None of this is that serious.  If you are that bent out of shape about the 'wired shut' comment.  I suggest talking to Bill Hess :aok
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2010, 12:57:07 AM »
BTW, nothing in any discussion here is ever worth my lying about just to prove someone wrong.  None of this is that serious.  If you are that bent out of shape about the 'wired shut' comment.  I suggest talking to Bill Hess :aok

My comment wasnt to imply you were lying but to say (which I think was clear) that the 'wired shut' statement is not in that book.

Hess is an obvious armchair historian since he even named the Mustang "Invader" which is something one unit did and no one officially did. Thats how urban legends get started you know.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2010, 09:42:16 AM »
I think it's fair to say that I'm an armchair historian.

I do believe Mr. Hess's credentials are a bit better :)

William Hess is the official historian for the American Fighter Aces Association, and is one of the most highly respected aviation writers of his generation. A B-17 crewman during World War 2, Hess has written over 40 books during his long and distinguished career.
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Offline fudgums

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2010, 10:08:15 AM »
I'm just going to assume Chalenge is wrong because he is Voss.

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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2010, 07:59:36 PM »
@ oldman

I think this will cover the proof you asked for.


Offline Oldman731

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2010, 09:03:28 PM »
@ oldman

I think this will cover the proof you asked for.

Not unless someone explains it to me first.  Especially the values along the bottom of the graph.

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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2010, 10:49:01 PM »
The numbers along the bottom are altitude.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2010, 12:03:39 AM »
I think it's fair to say that I'm an armchair historian.

I do believe Mr. Hess's credentials are a bit better :)

William Hess is the official historian for the American Fighter Aces Association, and is one of the most highly respected aviation writers of his generation. A B-17 crewman during World War 2, Hess has written over 40 books during his long and distinguished career.

And yet he never flew the A-36A and cannot claim that they were wired shut from first hand experience. One man who did fly A-36As in combat speaks up and his testimony is ignored.

Somethings wrong with that picture.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2010, 09:04:41 AM »
The numbers along the bottom are altitude.

I don't mean to be deliberately obtuse, but it seems to me that this graph says that a P47 which starts a dive from 25k will reach terminal velocity at 22k and pull out at 14k.  Is it instructive for anything else, such as dive entry at 10k?  Am I completely missing it?

- oldman

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2010, 04:14:02 PM »
And yet he never flew the A-36A and cannot claim that they were wired shut from first hand experience. One man who did fly A-36As in combat speaks up and his testimony is ignored.

Somethings wrong with that picture.

No one said he was ignored.  I mentioned that Freeman states the 27th stuck to the initial dive bombing philosophy.  Your vet was a 27th FG guy correct?  So the 27th always used the dive brakes.  Could be the reports of problems came from the 86th FG.  Your vet didn't fly with the 86th.  Clearly the Wright field test where the A36A shed it's wings caused concerns enough that heading out to the MTO the A36 guys were told to not used the Dive Brakes.  Greunhagen states that initial reports out of the MTO said the dive brake problems caused the A36 to be rated as unsatisfactory initially in combat.  They all also state that over time the problems were overcome.

This doesn't have to be a black or white answer here.  That the problem was overcome is the bottom line and the A36s ended up using the dive brakes once maintenance and pilot technique was refined.  LOL, I kinda wish I'd never used the phrase 'wired shut'.  I'll be sure to have exact quotes next time and will not go from memory ever again! :)

In the end the A36s got replaced by Jugs anyway and the ground attack bird of choice ended up being the P47.  We can speculate all we want about what might have been, but in the end, the powers that be didn't see enough to order more A36s, or any other dedicated dive bomber for the USAAF. 

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2010, 04:19:22 PM »

In the end the A36s got replaced by Jugs anyway and the ground attack bird of choice ended up being the P47.  We can speculate all we want about what might have been, but in the end, the powers that be didn't see enough to order more A36s, or any other dedicated dive bomber for the USAAF. 



How about the A-25 or did the USAAF cancel the order once they realized they didn't need the Shrike anymore?

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