Author Topic: Dive bombing discussion  (Read 5970 times)

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2010, 04:40:46 PM »
Clearly the Wright field test where the A36A shed it's wings caused concerns enough that heading out to the MTO the A36 guys were told to not used the Dive Brakes. 

The unsatisfactory rating was due to improper procedures in the dive and the aim point moving during asymmetrical deployment. This was fixed by reinforcing procedures which I think you should know very well by now.

You are aware of the real problem with the wing sheddings? I mean it cropped up again during the mass shipments of P-51Ds to England and killed two test pilots (Lt Burtie Orth and Lt Bill Clearwater) before they figured out the problem. Again it was initially thought to be a problem with the hydraulics but in this case it was discovered to be a very simple issue with the landing gear up-locks. In the case of the A-36 it was an up-lock pin that had sheared during maintenance without having been noticed. Yes there were also cases where wings were overstressed but again that was procedure and not the fault of the dive brakes.

The P-47 did not replace the A-36 due to any inadequacy of the Mustang. The A-36s went on to serve in Italy also. The US Army wanted P-51s for escort duty and thought the factories would be better utilized for their production. Its the same mentality that kept the P-40 in production.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2010, 06:26:30 PM »

The P-47 did not replace the A-36 due to any inadequacy of the Mustang. The A-36s went on to serve in Italy also. The US Army wanted P-51s for escort duty and thought the factories would be better utilized for their production. Its the same mentality that kept the P-40 in production.


One of the main weaknesses of the A-36 was the same suffered by all Mustangs, the vulnerable cooling system that led to the loss of the majority of A-36s due to ground fire.  This was a major factor in removing the A-36A from the ETO and being replaced by P-40s and P-47s in the ground attack role.  The 8th AF found that the P-47 and P-40 were able to perform the same job to the same level as the A-36A was able to while not being as vulnerable to ground fire as the A-36A was.

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2010, 06:46:43 PM »
That explains why the A-36s continued to serve until they were no longer able to.

Sorry I cant find any thing to support your claim.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2010, 10:20:42 PM »
Any particular reason you want to beat this dead horse?  The 27th and 86th ended up in Jugs, giving up the A36s.  The A36 was not continued in production.  No one has claimed it was a bad bird.  But this history is what it is. 

You seem to be taking this as an attack on the Mustang.  No one is.
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Offline dtango

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2010, 11:26:11 PM »
Thought that I would chime in with a bit of interesting aeronautic history.  MiloMorai, you pointed out the terminal velocity chart from NACA ACR L5G31.  I believe ACR L5G31 is actually evidence of P-47's in vertical dives (and also the difficulty with them in situations prior to dive flaps being installed).

L5G31 references that the P-47C-1-RE data in Figure 17 (the terminal mach chart) were collected from dives done by Maj. Perry Ritchie (a Capt at the time).  The P-47 experienced compressibility stability and control issues like many WW2 warbirds.  At the time however they didn't know the cause.  P-47 pilots reported that high speed vertical dives entered from a Split S at 35,000 ft exhibited a nose tuck beyond vertical (>90 degrees nose down) and the loss of elevator effectiveness (a "control freeze").  The dive appeared unrecoverable until around 15,000 ft when control suddenly returned and if the pilot didn't break the P-47 in the process due very high maneuver loads was able then to recover (usually with bent wings!).

The cause was hotly debated among leading NACA aerodynamicists with three theories explaining the cause.  However the only way to see which theory was correct was to flight test the issue and record what was happening with the elevator.  NACA and Wright Field had difficulty finding a contract pilot willing to do the tests.  Instead they found Maj. P. Ritchie, apparently one of the physically strongests USAAF test pilots who volunteered to do the tests for nothing.  Maj. Ritchie proceeded to do some 30+ hair raising high speed vertical dives in the P-47 and his flight tests proved that the cause was due to compressibility stability & control issues.  He was awarded an air medal for his bravery.

The following chart is a time history of the P-47 vertical dives and what was happening due to compressibility:



In a vertical dive once the P-47 was beyond it's critical mach compressibility caused the nose of the P-47 to tuck away from pure vertical.  Also the elevator lost effectiveness to change the attitude of the aircraft.  As can be seen on the figure the elevator deflection angles ranged between +3 to -3 degrees.  At the high airspeeds of the dive usual loads from those amount of elevator angles would have produced loads in excess of 20 to 30 g's, easily destroying the aircraft.  As can be seen however due flow separation from sonic shock waves due to compressibility the elevator effectiveness only produced a 1/2 g instead which was pretty much was control freeze to a pilot diving at that speed.  At about 15,000 ft the air got dense enough increasing the drag and slowing the airplane down enough to reduce or eliminate the compressibility shock separation so that elevator control came back.  However if the pilot was continue to pull hard back or had the tab set to full trim up this would result in a violent recovery which could easily destroy the aircraft.

That Maj. Ritchie was able to recover the airplane said a lot about his strength, control and coolness.  As Dr. Robert Gilruth describes

"Fortunately, when you get to lower and lower altitude, the drag goes up to the place where it forces your speed down below where that sharp separation takes place, and the flow reseats itself and then it's a regular airplane. But you're apt to pull the wings off because by that time you're just scared to death, afraid you're going to hit the ground.    Perry Ritchie didn't do that. He did it just right."

Sadly Maj. Ritchie died later in 1944 while doing dive and recovery testing on a new B-25.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2010, 12:25:49 AM »
Any particular reason you want to beat this dead horse?  The 27th and 86th ended up in Jugs, giving up the A36s.  The A36 was not continued in production.  No one has claimed it was a bad bird.  But this history is what it is.

Im pretty sure I have seen photos of at least one of the squadrons operating both aircraft simultaneously and according to the text with that photo operating well into 1944. Not that it matters because (as you say repeatedly) these types wont do anything for the events and scenarios of AH.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2010, 12:46:43 AM »
Im pretty sure I have seen photos of at least one of the squadrons operating both aircraft simultaneously and according to the text with that photo operating well into 1944. Not that it matters because (as you say repeatedly) these types wont do anything for the events and scenarios of AH.

LOL ok where did I say the A36 would not be helpful in scenario and events?  Please show me. The only 51 variant I object to is the 4 cannon bird. 

I'd love to see an RAF Mustang I, P51A or the A36.  I think a CBI scenario would benefit from 1st Air Commando Allison 51s.  A36s for an MTO scenario would be good fun. Flying an RAF Allison Mustang to Dieppe might be fun too.  I prefer early birds to late war birds any time.

I had no idea I had such power on aircraft decisions in AH.  Last I checked, I don't get to decide. :)
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2010, 12:48:25 AM »
Now wait a minute! The last time I brought up the Mustang (P-51) Im sure it was you that said we need other planes first and the P-51 would be much less often used (oh wait you said Mustang I not Ia).  :D
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2010, 01:31:29 AM »
Now wait a minute! The last time I brought up the Mustang (P-51) Im sure it was you that said we need other planes first and the P-51 would be much less often used (oh wait you said Mustang I not Ia).  :D

So you aren't going to show me where I objected to the Allison Mustangs beyond the 4 cannon bird? 

Just for giggles I checked, and numerous times I supported the idea of the Mustang I, P51A and A36.  Funny how that works.  If anything, maybe this means you've finally come off the 4 cannon 51 wish.  In fact I think you should spend your time focusing on getting the A36 in game.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2010, 03:43:29 AM »
I would prefer the A36 actually but NO... the P-51 (four cannon aircraft) has the faster climb rate to 12k which is what I was after. It doesnt carry bombs or rockets which means to fly it you must be in fighter mode which I like even more.  :D

A few respondants (if I remember right) were against it just because they thought noobs would HO which they already do. If someone hasnt learned to avoid a HO they need to work on that rather than argue against cannon equipped aircraft.
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Offline grizz441

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2010, 07:44:30 AM »
I would prefer the A36 actually but NO... the P-51 (four cannon aircraft) has the faster climb rate to 12k which is what I was after.

But which has the faster climb rate to 35k?   :headscratch:

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2010, 04:09:29 PM »
But which has the faster climb rate to 35k?   :headscratch:

Mania in bipolar disorder is treated with lithium treatments. You should probably see a physician about that.
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Offline PropHawk

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2010, 12:20:25 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

Looks dangerous alright.   :confused:
No kidding. Is that a slice of cheese on that blade?
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Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #73 on: August 06, 2010, 02:14:15 PM »
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Offline BulletVI

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Re: Dive bombing discussion
« Reply #74 on: August 07, 2010, 12:44:52 PM »
The Brits and Americans preferred fighter bombers over dive bombers. Dive bombers (A-36 and Vengeance) were quite successful in the MTO and SEA theatres.

I contend that if in the ETO that the f/bs were dumped and replaced by dive bombers the war in Europe could have ended earlier. F/bs were notoriously inaccurate but the dive bomber could take out any enemy strong points that were holding up the advance of the army.

Take a lesson from the Battle Of Britain. In the first 3 weeks of the battle  there where more Stuka crews shot down by fighter's than there where bomber's. Hence Goering actually only sent Stuka's in to battle if proper fighter escort could be provided. And on most sortie's that wasn't the case as they would all be escorting the bomber's. This is also the reason the Germans on the Eastern Front and in North Africa changed the Stuka's role to anti tank busting and bombing artillery gun emplacement's even in this role with a fighter escort they where still easy meat for fighter's.  Hence allied command decreed that dive bombers where not an efficient and effective weapon. On the battlefield. We the Brits And the Americans saw the only capability of the dive bomber was against ships at sea.

As we all know of the story's from SBD crew's that on more than one occasion they had dropped their bomb straight down the funnel or dead centre on the carrier deck.   
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