Early war set-up

[Guppy35]

Instead of throwing in 2c's with I's in the same unit but different people. Give them a 6 man squadron.

The Hurri I drivers for real knew they were out of the fight essentially when the 109F showed up in 1941.  To throw guys in Hurri I's seems pointless other then to appease the Axis drivers.  IIB and IIC were the order of the day.  Plenty of photos of Mersailles standing next to IIB and IIC Hurri's he'd downed.

The only 190s that showed up in the MTO were 190F2 fighter bombers that made it to Tunisia for a time at the end of 42 and into 43.  They were not involved in anything to do with Malta.

[Nemisis]

The seahurricane was a hurri I with 20mm cannons thrown into the wings apparently. It seems like that is pleny of reason to have a mixed assortment of hurricanes. Just have the groups listed as flying hurricanes, and don't state the model, so you can rotate groups through the IIC.

[Babalonian]

Babalonian, thanks for the interest and the drive to do some digging into the records.  We have a full OOB at this time.  There were definately 202s involved and they will be present.

If you are interested in the battles around Malta, I suggest you locate a copy of "Malta: The Spitfire Year 1942" by Christopher Shores - ISBN-10: 094881716X at 704 pages it is chocked full of good reading and useful data.

Cheers

No problem... figured ya can't blame me for trying to justify a 190 in the OOB.    Glad the 202 made it in.

I'll add that book to my list of books to look into, thanks.

[Babalonian]

The Hurri I drivers for real knew they were out of the fight essentially when the 109F showed up in 1941.  To throw guys in Hurri I's seems pointless other then to appease the Axis drivers.  IIB and IIC were the order of the day.  Plenty of photos of Mersailles standing next to IIB and IIC Hurri's he'd downed.

The only 190s that showed up in the MTO were 190F2 fighter bombers that made it to Tunisia for a time at the end of 42 and into 43.  They were not involved in anything to do with Malta.

Not trying to throw pilots into sitting ducks here for the amusement of their enemy, I just want the pretty or ugly truth and for our scenario to be close to it. 

I'd love to pour through any documentation though of what Hurri units were operating what out there at the time if you can point me to some.  If there were a few or many squads in the region operating IIcs on the dates in question, then so be it, but I simply haven't stumbled across it yet.  If I recall correctly, I did find something that said there was a few (the first) IIcs flown/delivered to Malta in the spring of '42, but it also mentioned that they were only ever able to get a few out of those (as well as their older Hurri-Is) air-ready and managing to keep them as such during the seige and the time of our scenario until more arrived later that year, forcing the Hurri drivers there to make due with anything they had until then.

I'd also (and most of all) would love to read through your source for the 190F2s that made it out to Tunisia in late '42.  I wholeheartedly believe and agree with you and the statement as it makes sence and adds up to what I was able to find... I'm just hungry for this information, kind of some closure for me, as I wasn't able to find it or anything of substinance on "The 190s Germany sent to the mediteranian and north african theatre in 1942 and 1943" in the last couple days.

The seahurricane was a hurri I with 20mm cannons thrown into the wings apparently. It seems like that is pleny of reason to have a mixed assortment of hurricanes. Just have the groups listed as flying hurricanes, and don't state the model, so you can rotate groups through the IIC.

A valid point with the Sea-Hurri, and Fencer mentioned chewing over the thought of launching and landing Hurri IIcs of carriers if pilots were up to the challenge.  However someone else further up in this thread pointed out the Seafires over Malta at the time came in both cannon-armed and non-cannon varients (the later is something AH doesn't currently have in the plane set).


I want to make it clear I'm on no campaign here to exclude the IIc, simply have a historic and balanced representation of them (and the Hurri-I) in our scenario.

[Fencer51]

The only reason the Hurricane IIC is being considered is that there were carrier based Hurricanes and some of them had cannons.  There were no land based Hurricanes involved in the July-August 1942 time frame at Malta.

I did point you toward some.. hence the book reference.   

[Nemisis]

babalonion, my comment was directed at guppy, in response to his statment that having hurri I's would be pointless other than to appease axis pilots. I was saying that since the two aircraft fly and fight differently asside from the armament, that the only fair thing to to would be to have a mix of the two models in the scenario.

[Krusty]

The Hurri I drivers for real knew they were out of the fight essentially when the 109F showed up in 1941.  To throw guys in Hurri I's seems pointless other then to appease the Axis drivers.  IIB and IIC were the order of the day.

The hurricane was out of the fight after the BOB, and everybody knew it. They moved it to second-line units, ground attack, etc. The problem is that in the real world it wasn't so... shall we say "effective"... as it is modeled in Aces High. In this game it has the potential to dominate planes "superior" (on paper) to it. The hizookas and the almost flawless flight characteristics coupled with the ahistorically fast rate of roll make it a platform that can take out even 109Fs, especially if given freely in large numbers.

I agree that the Hurr1 was out of the picture, but it technically wasnt, since sea hurricanes were war-weary airframes, based off Hurr1s. The Sea Hurricane IIC was a Hurr1 airframe with the wing guns changed out, but it still had the Merlin III engine.

The problem is we really don't have one of these in AH, and only about 400 .303-armed Sea Hurricanes, and about 400 20mm-armed ones, were produced in total. It wasn't very common in the overall war.

With all of these comments in mind, I suggested erring on the side of caution rather than on the side that might tilt things towards the allied planeset.


P.S. I'll repeat, "Oh, I wish we had an E-7!!!" (*looks around to see if HTC noticed*)

[Guppy35]

Not trying to throw pilots into sitting ducks here for the amusement of their enemy, I just want the pretty or ugly truth and for our scenario to be close to it. 

I'd love to pour through any documentation though of what Hurri units were operating what out there at the time if you can point me to some.  If there were a few or many squads in the region operating IIcs on the dates in question, then so be it, but I simply haven't stumbled across it yet.  If I recall correctly, I did find something that said there was a few (the first) IIcs flown/delivered to Malta in the spring of '42, but it also mentioned that they were only ever able to get a few out of those (as well as their older Hurri-Is) air-ready and managing to keep them as such during the seige and the time of our scenario until more arrived later that year, forcing the Hurri drivers there to make due with anything they had until then.

I'd also (and most of all) would love to read through your source for the 190F2s that made it out to Tunisia in late '42.  I wholeheartedly believe and agree with you and the statement as it makes sence and adds up to what I was able to find... I'm just hungry for this information, kind of some closure for me, as I wasn't able to find it or anything of substinance on "The 190s Germany sent to the mediteranian and north african theatre in 1942 and 1943" in the last couple days.


A valid point with the Sea-Hurri, and Fencer mentioned chewing over the thought of launching and landing Hurri IIcs of carriers if pilots were up to the challenge.  However someone else further up in this thread pointed out the Seafires over Malta at the time came in both cannon-armed and non-cannon varients (the later is something AH doesn't currently have in the plane set).


I want to make it clear I'm on no campaign here to exclude the IIc, simply have a historic and balanced representation of them (and the Hurri-I) in our scenario.

190s were II/JG2 and were the first 190s in action. They were sent back to France in March 43 after losing 18 aircraft and claiming 150.  II/SG2 had 109F1 and suffered crippling losses during the Allied invasion of Sicily.

As for the Hurri units in the MTO  October 42 order of battle

6.7 SAAF  Hurri IID
73 Squadron Hurri IIC
80, 127, 335 Squadrons Hurri IIB
274 Squadron Hurri IIC
1 SAAF, 33, 213, 238 Squadrons Hurri IIC
40 SAAF, 208 Squadron  Hurri IIB
889 FAA Squadron Hurri IIC
94 Squadron Hurri IIB
417 Squadron Hurri IIB

[Beefcake]

Did someone say B25C Wellington?!?

[IrishOne]

it isn't TOO great of a stretch to sub a 190A5 for a 190A1.

pretty big stretch

[Nemisis]

no worse than using the mossie for a beaufighter would be.

[StokesAk]

no worse than using the mossie for a beaufighter would be.

That's why were not doing it.

[Krusty]

There's no real way a 190A5 fills in for an A-1. Not to mention you don't HAVE to put every last plane into a setup. If you were to do it proportionally, you'd get between zero and one Fw190s to make up the proper ratio of 190s in service at the time, compared to other craft.

It doesn't fit, no need to push the issue.

[Fencer51]

no worse than using the mossie for a beaufighter would be.

For the third time, we are not using the Mossie.

Yet using the mossie for the beau would be subbing a plane for a plane that was actually there.  There were NO Fws in the fighting over Malta or in the Med in August 1942.

Let it go, and raise your post count elsewhere.

[Nemisis]

No, no, you misunderstand me. I'm saying that were mossies going to be included in the scenario, the 190A5 would fill in for the 190A1 about as well as the mossie would have filled in for the beaufighter. I'm ready to let that whole part of the thread die if we could stop dredging the bottom.