Plane vs Plane Thread

[Ardy123]

In short, pilots being equal the P-38 will come out on top.....

Yeah, I agree, the 190s have some of the highest stall speeds in the game, now, if the 190 keeps a rolling scissors fast, then breaks off, gains e and repeats, he has a shot. The thing with the 190, is that it has 'hella-guns', and it doesn't take more than 1 snap shot to strip a p38 of its booms, also, setting up reversals with it is fun to do, because it rolls so fast.

[Muzzy]

This is actually a pretty interesting matchup. The planes are comparable in some characteristics, especially at low altitude. Again, pilot skill is paramount in a situation like this, as is plane performance at altitude.

The 190A5 has better advantages on the deck. It can out-climb the 38L up to about 6k and can almost match the 38's speed at low alt (-5mph difference with WEP). The 190 also has a slightly better turn radius and that famous roll rate, which could buy it a lot of reversals. Conversely, the 38 has better climb in the 6-15k range and has comparable stats elsewhere.

Co-alt, Co-e at say 10k, the A5 wants to take things to the deck where it should be able to out-maneuver the 38 and rip it to shreds.  The 38 wants to keep things at 5-12k alt and use it's climb rate to set up a shot.

The A5 driver should take it down to the deck as quickly as possible, while the 38 driver will need to use e-tactics to build an advantage.  Of the two rides, the 38 has a better tactical advantage since all it needs to do is stay high, which it does really well.  The thing about the A5 is that it's kind of the opposite of what you expect in an FW. In this instance, it has slightly less speed than it's opponent and slightly better turn rate, so you have to kind of think more about turning than running.

[MjTalon]

That works for a P38L but I asked about the P38J.. They're quite different in the maneuverability department (38L has boosted ailerons, the 38J doesn't) so now you have another key to factor in when drawing a engagement between the two.

The 38J has to dictate the 190 with a lot of nose low maneuvers to build speed and difficult high speed shots for the 190. The 38J won't out roll the A-5 so to counteract that you'll want to fly using nose low reversals to make it difficult for the A5 to get a good gun solution and to gain separation and E if he's BnZ'ing you. If you're familiar with ACM you can go from a nose low pitchback to a barrel roll and work for angels and catch a good burst on the A5 if he tries to extend and climb for alt.

It's a interesting engagement indeed and IMO it boils down to the knowledge of both pilots on ACM, E management and SA.

[Muzzy]

It's interesting how different models stack up against each other isn't it? This would be a different conversation if we were talking about the Dora.

[Ack-Ack]

That works for a P38L but I asked about the P38J.. They're quite different in the maneuverability department (38L has boosted ailerons, the 38J doesn't) so now you have another key to factor in when drawing a engagement between the two.

There isn't really all that much difference between the maneuverability of the P-38L compared to the P-38J.  All that I said for the J also applies for the L.

The 38J has to dictate the 190 with a lot of nose low maneuvers to build speed and difficult high speed shots for the 190.

It all depends on the kind of fight.  If you're avoiding the A-5's BnZ attacks, then maneuvers like Low Yo-Yo's to meet the attack to build up E while avoiding the attack is recommended, as this give you sufficient energy to follow the attacker in the vertical for a quick shot.

The 38J won't out roll the A-5 so to counteract that you'll want to fly using nose low reversals to make it difficult for the A5 to get a good gun solution and to gain separation and E if he's BnZ'ing you. If you're familiar with ACM you can go from a nose low pitchback to a barrel roll and work for angels and catch a good burst on the A5 if he tries to extend and climb for alt.

Take the fight in the vertical, it will help negate the roll rate advantage of the A-5.  Use vertical angles if in a turn fight, get the fight slow and now matter how much of a roll rate advantage the A-5 has, it will not be able to use it effectively if the fight is at low to stall speeds, where as the P-38 will be able to dance around the A-5 like Nijinsky.

Despite some other post to try and show the contrary, there isn't really a speed range where the A-5 has any sort of significant advantage over the P-38, unlike planes like the Spitfire or N1K2 where at medium speeds they'd chew a P-38 up.  The same cannot be said of the A-5, the only time an A-5 is a major threat to a P-38 is if it comes into the fight with an overwhelming energy advantage and/or altitude advantage.

Like I mentioned in my other post, if the fight degenerates into a rolling scissors fight on the deck, the P-38 has the advantage if it can get it's flaps out earlier enough to slow down enough to keep in back of the A-5.  If the P-38 didn't get the flaps out quick enough, things can get a little tougher but the P-38 pilot can still force a reversal by using it's slower roll rate and better slow speed characteristics to force the A-5 out front.  Also, the P-38 also has the added benefit of still taking the fight into the vertical and using maneuvers like a stall loop to get a quick angle inside the A-5s slow speed turn.

It's a interesting engagement indeed and IMO it boils down to the knowledge of both pilots on ACM, E management and SA.

I honestly don't think so, a far more interesting and better match up for a P-38 (any model) would be the Ki-61 or the Ki-84.  I've never felt any of the FW planes an "interesting" match up for the Lightning.

ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

This would be a different conversation if we were talking about the Dora.

If you're referring to a P-38 vs. FW 190D-9 matchup, no the conversation would be the same.  In this matchup, things clearly swing in the P-38s favor and the only time a Dora would be a threat would if it if engages with an overwhelming energy and/or altitude advantage.  The Dora does not compete with the P-38 in terms of maneuverability other than roll rate and at high speeds it's almost moot as the Lightning's roll rate improves with speed (all models, not just the aileron boosted L).  The Dora cannot compete with any of the Lightnings in the vertical unless if comes in with an overwhelming energy advantage, otherwise the P-38 will beat the crap out of the Dora in a vertical fight.  The Dora can't turn with the P-38 and if the P-38 driver uses coordinated nose low turns, the roll rate advantage of the Dora is pretty much negated.  The Dora can't dive away and try to escape because the P-38 driver can keep up.

In a 1v1 matchup with equal pilots, like the A-5 and A-8, the Dora will lose unless the Lightning pilot makes a mistake.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

The A5 driver should take it down to the deck as quickly as possible, while the 38 driver will need to use e-tactics to build an advantage. 

If the A-5 takes the fight to the deck and tries to force an angles (turn) fight, the A-5 isn't going to come out on top.  The P-38 will not need to use E tactics to regain the advantage either.  No offense, but your comments on the P-38 stem out of inexperience with the Lightning in both flying and fighting in it.  It's clear that you don't think the P-38 can be used for anything other than BnZ or other E fighting tactics. 

Of the two rides, the 38 has a better tactical advantage since all it needs to do is stay high, which it does really well.  The thing about the A5 is that it's kind of the opposite of what you expect in an FW. In this instance, it has slightly less speed than it's opponent and slightly better turn rate, so you have to kind of think more about turning than running.

Again, your closing comments are born out of unfamiliarity with flying and fighting in the Lightning.  The P-38 doesn't need to stay high to successfully fight and beat the A-5, in fact it's better to drag the fight to the deck and use the better slow speed handling and virtually non-existant (i.e. the most gentle stall characteristic of any fighter in AH) stall characteristics and extremely easy stall recovery of the P-38 to overcome whatever meager strengths the A-5 has over the P-38.

Just to be clear, I am not speaking about any particular model of P-38, what I said is true for all three models.

ack-ack

[Lovin_Lightning]

While we're talking P-38,

p-38L v. N1K2

Head on merge, N1K2 at 12K, p-38 at 9k

[MjTalon]

Well said Ack-Ack! 

[Ardy123]

I agree with ack-ack, although I would like to add that K4 vs P38 is always fun. Both fight best in the vert and both can't turn very well. If both pilots are good, some awesome rolling scissors/etc.. style fights develop that are often very close.

[Ruah]

ok, LA7 vs. P-38  and Yak-9 vs 38

I don't lik the 38 much, I know there are some amazing sticks that beat m up all th time in them, but latly i am finding myself back in the La-7 a lot more.  I know its a 'noob' ride, but its a real beast and I love trying to manage the stalls and dips and out of plane flight stuff. . .it gets up to speed fast, has a really fun gun package, and the views are fantastic (and the red nose skin makes me happy)

And of course the Yak-9, which I try get get into at least once a night to practise. . . but its a very tricky ride for me because I heistate pulling the trigger too much.

[Ack-Ack]

ok, LA7 vs. P-38  and Yak-9 vs 38

I don't lik the 38 much, I know there are some amazing sticks that beat m up all th time in them, but latly i am finding myself back in the La-7 a lot more.  I know its a 'noob' ride, but its a real beast and I love trying to manage the stalls and dips and out of plane flight stuff. . .it gets up to speed fast, has a really fun gun package, and the views are fantastic (and the red nose skin makes me happy)

And of course the Yak-9, which I try get get into at least once a night to practise. . . but its a very tricky ride for me because I heistate pulling the trigger too much.

The La7 isn't a noob ride, that's just something those that don't know how to fight one keep calling it to help soothe their battered ego.

As for the La-7 vs. P-38 matchup...the La 7 needs to keep it's energy and use BnZ attacks.  In a turn fight, the only advantage a La 7 has it's instaneous turn rate at the beginning and as the fight slows down as it progresses, the advantage swings to the P-38's side.  The La 7 doesn't have the vertical option as the P-38 is far superior to the La 7 in the vertical and unless the La 7 has an overwhelming energy advantage, the vertical game isn't something a La 7 wants to play with a P-38. The La 7 can try and use it's better climb rate to get above the P-38 but there is a risk of the P-38 "hanging back" in the climb and maintain a position (though will not have a shot) behind the climbing La 7 and waiting for the time to strike and as the altitude increases, things swing into the P-38's favor.

In short, in a La 7 you want to keep the fight low (ideally 13,000ft or lower) to use the better speed and acceleration to maintain an energy advantage and use energy fighting tactics (like BnZ).  Do not get impatient and turn with the P-38 at any speeds and do not play with a P-38 above 15,000ft or higher and above 20,000ft no way in hell a La 7 will out maneuver a P-38.

As for the Yak, it's a little tougher nut to crack (but not all that much) than the La 7 but fight the Yak the same way as the La 7 and the P-38 driver really shouldn't have any troubles.  Only time a Yak should be a threat to a P-38 is if the Yak has either (or both) energy and altitude advantage. 

The problems with the Yak and La 7 is that they don't have a "speed range" where they can out maneuver the P-38, unlike planes like the Spitfire or N1K2 that have a speed range (medium speeds) where they'll be all over a P-38 like white on rice.  With planes like the Spitfire or N1K2, the P-38 has to keep the speed out of the medium zone as much as possible to avoid being chewed up in an angles fight while there is no need to do this when fighting a La 7 or Yak.  You want to keep the La 7 and Yak fast against the P-38, like I mentioned use energy tactics like BnZ to beat the P-38 into submission by making the Lightning burn its energy avoiding your BnZ passes but you need to be aggressive and use proper BnZ tactics, not the Nancy Boy version of BnZ you see the majority use where the make a too high speed pass and then Run..err I mean Zoom half a sector away which lets the target bandit regain whatever altitude and energy lost in the break turn.

ack-ack

[Tom5572]

When I started flying the 38, I was amazed at the ease of beating LA7s.  My first engagement with an LA7 on the deck, energy deficient, I was sure I was toast.  I did a couple break turns, the LA7 went to the angles fight and I dominated him.  I was pleasantly surprised. 

[Plazus]

Mossie Mk6 vs P38 G or J

I know the 38 will win majority of the fights in this matchup. But what would be the Mossie's best fighting tactics to use against the 38?

[Ruah]

thank you Ack-Ack - that was a great write up and i thank you for taking the time.