Author Topic: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing  (Read 27153 times)

Offline Chalenge

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2010, 02:01:38 PM »
Even your former squaddies have come forward.   I'm happily married.   I realize you're under some stress so if you need to "tap" the left foot, leave me out of it.  

If your talking about Uptown your talking about nothing. Otherwise your confused which is obvious.

Stoney: Your right end of thread. Brooke obviously had nothing to begin with except a desire to argue.

These other moonbats never have anything to add to any thread.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2010, 02:47:13 PM »
If your talking about Uptown your talking about nothing. Otherwise your confused which is obvious.

Stoney: Your right end of thread. Brooke obviously had nothing to begin with except a desire to argue.

These other moonbats never have anything to add to any thread.

Sorry, you're incorrect on your "assumption".   Keep guessing though.   
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Offline dtango

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2010, 05:03:54 PM »
I considered posting a unified aero oriented view of the topic on the importance of paying attention to the boundary layer with the P-51 as the case study but given the direction the thread is going I decided against it.  That being said here are a few points I thought I would point out.

1) Eppler and Wortmann are red herrings for all sorts of reasons, one being that the reynolds numbers we deal with in WW2 fighter planes don't apply.

2) All wings have both laminar and turbulent flows in the boundary layer.  The question is where the transition occurs on the chord of the wing between laminar and turbulent flows.  Conventional wings have the transition point between 5%-20% of the chord from the leading edge.  Low drag laminar flow wings were designed to try and move the transition point further back along the wing compared to conventional airfoils increasing the length of the laminar runs which reduces skin friction drag.

3) Though true that the P-51 wing in "service condition" didn't produce the longer laminar flows, this could be rectified by polishing the wing and smoothing out surface waviness which was the main culprit.  Here's the data from the NACA tests on the XP-51 that show's this.  There are also other data points from other NACA reports that demonstrate this with other low-drag wings.

XP-51 Surface Waviness – service condition vs. smoothing:


XP-51 Drag Polar – various surface finishes of the wing:



4) Whether smoothed out or not the "laminar bucket" does not exist for the drag polar of the complete P-51 airplane.  Pyro's chart show's this.  If this isn't enough the following charts from P-51 flights tests, wind tunnel tests, and modern CFD analysis show this as well.

P-51B Flight Test Drag Polars:




P-51B Wind Tunnel Drag Polar:




P-51B Modern CFD Drag Polar:




5) Parasite drag by definition includes both the skin friction drag due to boundary layer fluid shear stress and pressure / profile drag due to boundary layer separation from viscous effects.  Pyro's chart is the increment in parasite drag (skin friction & pressure/profile drag) with lift coefficient for the P-51.

6) The data that Brooke pointed out from McCormick is data on NACA 6A series airfoils conducted in the low-turbulence wind tunnel at Langley (NACA Report No. 903).

Hopefully that clears a few things up. 

BTW - Brooke would win the wager ;).
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Offline Brooke

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2010, 05:36:36 PM »
Thanks for the post, dtango.

Well, there you have it.

Offline IrishOne

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2010, 05:59:30 PM »
i don't know much about physics, but i do know that a wing at 8 degrees AoA is going to produce more drag than a wing at 0 degrees AoA.   it's preschool simple.  to say otherwise is the same as saying the square peg goes in the round hole.  geez, i figured that one out by 7th grade  :rolleyes:
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Offline grizz441

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2010, 07:05:52 PM »

why do you constantly try to make everyone think you are better than them?    get over yourself, cupcake.   did u not see Pyro's post above?!   my moneys on Brooke.  but of course I don't have nearly the $$$ you do, as you so eloquently stated

He also has the aircraft it takes, a vintage P51D, that is currently sitting in a hangar in Nantucket.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2010, 02:58:08 AM »
BTW - Brooke would win the wager ;).

No... I tried to get him to clarify on what he would say 'significant' was which he didnt.

My point on Eppler and Wortmann was that it was the driving factor on Raspet looking into assymetrical laminars which is what the pony has I believe. Raspet himself is the one that suggested the range of eight degrees AOA. I know I know the closer examination would show minute changes in cd but thats the point of the double bucket after all. Raspet defined the Mustang as partially turbulent at all times but also laminar (upper or lower surface) in most situations ruling out the case of stalls.

I am well aware of the surface finish research. Thankfully we have quite different materials today.

As to your definition of 'parasite drag' I know it is common for Americans to believe they (we) have established the universal rule but in this case it is not true. The European (european union) and I believe Australian/New Zealand definition differs.

Quote
as now generally accepted, any or all of the drag forces acting on an aircraft that are not formed in the production of lift. In subsonic flow, any or all of the drag forces acting on an aircraft exclusive of the induced drag b) in some contexts, especially in the older literature, any or all of the drag forces from parts of the aircraft that do not contribute to the lift. In sense (b), the parasite drag does not include 'profile drag'.

And Brookes data is still not a Pony airfoil. 'Close enough' or not.

One might ask why it is IrishOne and Grizz decided to show their ugly butts and attempt to nail the lid shut on this one. I know neither one of them could possibly keep up with the conversation.  :rolleyes:
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Offline bozon

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2010, 03:59:42 AM »
it's preschool simple.  to say otherwise is the same as saying the square peg goes in the round hole.
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Offline IrishOne

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2010, 09:38:44 AM »
See Rules #4, #6, #2
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 09:24:08 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline dtango

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2010, 11:31:27 PM »
Raspet is famous for his contributions to laminar flow wings for sailplanes.  The reason that longer laminar flows are achievable for gliders is because they operate at lower reynolds numbers compared to powered aircraft, most notably our WW2 fighters.  However at higher reynolds numbers the boundary layer becomes even more unstable and it is much more difficult to obtain longer laminar runs.

Increasing reynolds number decreases boundary layer thickness which makes the boundary layer much more susceptible to all sorts of things that trip laminar flows to turbulent like local disturbances caused by surface waviness from the manufacturing process.   For pre-1950's construction it was downright impossible to obtain long laminar flows without the aforementioned refinishing and smoothing.  The XP-51 with standard factory finishing only acheived laminar flow for 15% of the chord.  Every credible aero report and aerodynamic text I've seen unequivocally acknowledge the dismal record of obtaining laminar flows on low-drag wings for higher reynolds flight and it's only been in the last 30 years or so that this has changed.

As to the whole 8 degrees aoa issue, even if you could achieve the laminar drag bucket for the wing as evidenced in all the drag polars for the P-51B I posted you wouldn't even see it because as shown other pressure drag from the entire P-51 dominates with increasing aoa which results in the traditional parabolic drag polar.

As to the definition of parasite drag, well we could quibble what profile drag is.  However drag not associated with lift is definitely a result of viscous forces- fundamentally skin friction due to shear stress and pressure drag due to separation.  As to your definintion of parasite drag, hmmm I think I'll settle with what's taught in aeronautics classes around the world and in the aero industry vs. from webster's online dictionary ;).

Tango
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Offline Brooke

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #70 on: September 18, 2010, 01:46:07 AM »
I tried to get him to clarify on what he would say 'significant' was which he didnt.

OK, let's say "substantially more drag" is at least 50% more drag.

Offline grizz441

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2010, 02:01:14 AM »
I know neither one of them could possibly keep up with the conversation.  :rolleyes:

 :lol
You're right, I don't know much about laminar flows, turbulent flows, reynolds numbers, Cd values,etc. pertaining to aircraft.  Just the basic theory that I learned in my fluid mechanics civil engineering course years ago.

Offline Brooke

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2010, 04:05:43 AM »
Regarding this (the original reason for the discussion):

Also... the laminar airfoil of the P-51 eliminates the increase of the coefficient of drag for the majority of the effective AOA. What that means is that as a pilot increases the AOA the coefficient of lift increases but the coefficient of drag remains constant for 65% (approximately) of the effective AOA. This is why a P-51 can raise its nose as much as eight degrees (or a little more) and the drag remains the same as if the wing were level and the P-51 can use its E to zoom to great advantage.

It dawned on me today why you might be thinking that.  I wondered if you might be considering the section drag coefficient as being the same as the drag coefficient of the wing.  Section drag coefficient is drag of the airfoil -- i.e., a wing of infinite aspect ratio.  Once you have a wing of finite aspect ratio, it necessarily (even if the wing is in all other respects idealized) introduces induced drag that increases with lift (i.e, with angle of attack), and it is appreciable.  There is no way around it -- it is a physical result of a wing of finite wingspan, whether the airfoil is laminar flow or not.

Let C_D = coefficient of drag.

For an idealized airfoil (infinite aspect ratio), C_D = c_d = constant, where c_d is the section drag coefficient (also "parasitic drag coefficient", "profile drag coefficient", etc. for the airfoil, and using various symbols, such as "C_D_0", "C_D_min", "c_d", etc. depending on reference). In the graphs I posted, it's called "section lift coefficient".  In Pyro's graph, "parasite drag coefficient".  In dtango's graph, "profile drag coefficient".

For an idealized wing producing constant value of downwash across the span (elliptical lift distribution is the optimal form here), C_D = c_d + C_D_i, where C_D_i = coefficient of induced drag = C_L^2 / (pi * AR), C_L is the coefficient of lift, pi is pi, and AR is the wing's apsect ratio.  This is the way it is once one has a wing that is no longer infinite wingspan -- its a physical derivation that lift must induce drag of this form.

For wings that diverge from the optimal elliptical lift distribution, C_D_i = C_L^2 / (pi * AR) * (1 + delta), where delta is typcially small.

For real (non-idealized) airfoils, c_d does vary with C_L.  For non-laminar-flow airfoils, c_d or section drag coefficient is roughly parabolic with C_L.  For laminar-flow airfoils (ones where laminar flow happens for an appreciable amount of the chord), c_d is typcially better than for non-laminar-flow airfoils, and it can have a "drag bucket", where c_d is low and nearly constant for some amount of C_L before laminar flow is eventually lost and c_d goes back to being parabolic vs. C_L.

However, c_d is much less than induced drag beyond small angles of attack, so that isn't even needed to conclude major things about drag at 8 deg AoA.  Thus, while I believe that for the P-51's airfoil c_d (or section drag coefficient) at 8 degress AoA is much greater than at zero deg. AoA (and you disagree), that doesn't even matter to the discussion of whether the P-51's wing has more drag at 8 deg. AoA than at zero AoA.   c_d (i.e., C_D at zero lift) is on order 0.001 to 0.01 or so.  C_D_i is much larger.

Let's look at some numbers.  Let's (contrary to reality but for the sake of argument) take the P-51's airfoil to be 100% laminar flow and 100% the same as a perfect, idealized airfoil so that it's section drag coefficient is totally independent of C_L (or thus AoA) and equal to c_d_min.  From the graphs I posted (and numerous other graphs of airfoil data), I'd guess that c_d_min for the P-51's airfoil is somewhere around 0.004, but also for the sake of argument, let's take it to be anything you want in the range of 0.001 to 0.01.  Now let's look at C_D_i = C_L^2 / (pi * AR) (not even putting in any value for delta -- for the sake of argument letting the P-51 have an optimal elliptical lift distribution).  The P-51's AR is about 5.8, so C_D_i = 0.0549 * C_L^2.  At zero lift, C_D = c_d_min, which equals, say, 0.01.  At 8 deg. AoA, where C_L is about 1.0, then C_D = 0.01 + 0.0549 = 0.0649 -- more than six times higher than C_D at zero lift.  Or, if anyone wants to dispute that 8 deg AoA isn't a C_L of 1.0, fine -- put in something unrealistically low for the sake of argument -- say, 0.5.  At C_L = 0.5, C_D = 0.01 + 0.0137, and C_D at 8 deg. AoA is still more than two times what it is at zero lift.  In all cases, I would call that "substantially more".

References for the above, so that (although it is standard material in aerodynamics books), I can't be accused of making it up or misderiving it.

Airplane Performance, Stability, and Control, by Perkins and Hage
Aerodynamics, Aeronautics, and Flight Mechanics, by McCormick
Fundamentals of Flight, by Shevell
Theory of Flight, by Von Mises
Introduction to Flight, by Anderson
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 04:46:26 AM by Brooke »

Offline Brooke

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2010, 04:01:19 AM »
Chalenge, any thoughts on the above?

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2010, 06:45:49 AM »
See Rules #2, #4
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 09:21:34 AM by Skuzzy »
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