Author Topic: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel  (Read 3437 times)

Offline DREDIOCK

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Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« on: September 20, 2010, 07:17:13 PM »
Anyone questioning the Tiger in Game really needs to watch this show.

According to the veterans interviewed. the tiger should be able to fire accurately at twice the range of a T34.

According to a russian tank commander
"the T-34 was accurate up to 500 meters. While the Tiger could fire at 1,000 meters accurately and even if you got close. It was very difficult to kill"

According to a German Tank commander. "I felt very safe inside the Tiger. in one engagement we were hit 36 times by the Russians and received no significant damage"

A British tank commander after D-Day "I fired at him at 100 yards and the round just bounced off" The tiger went around a hedge and the two tanks met heat on with the britich tank closing "I fired off two more rounds to the same effect. they bounced right off. the Tiger fired once to great effect as two of my crew were killed and it blew me right out of the turret"

Obviously these tank commanders have never Driven tanks in AH LOL



This was before the King Tiger.

http://military.history.com/global/listings/listings.jsp?NetwCode=HCI
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 07:19:09 PM by DREDIOCK »
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 07:22:55 PM »
Agreed, tiger is fine. M4's are a bit questionable, but they still seem fine.
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Offline Spikes

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 07:26:02 PM »
The thing is AH doesn't factor in any sort of 'gun accuracy' that I've seen. It's all laser style shooting.

ie you can shoot a T-34's gun it's longest distance possible, shoot in the same spot every time, and hit the same spot every time.
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 07:32:05 PM »
Well spikes, long range shooting would be very hard, if not impossible, were HTC to factor in the shot dispersion we have with autocannons and MG's. You would have to keep firing untill the game randomly placed your shell in the right spot.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 08:56:11 PM »
Wouldnt it be possible to factor in degrees of accuracies at different ranges. the greater the range shot by a given gun the lessor and more random the accuracy or the greater the range a projectile travels the more random the round placement? And also factor in velocity at given ranges?
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 08:58:36 PM »
I THINK htc has the velocities at various ranges modeled, but I'm not sure. I know the penetration preformance is within shouting distance of accurate.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2010, 09:31:29 PM »
I THINK htc has the velocities at various ranges modeled, but I'm not sure. I know the penetration preformance is within shouting distance of accurate.

Ok then its a matter of accuracy at longer ranges then. which would lead us back to the first part of my question.

All I know is I've had Tigers taken out at much longer ranges then I would think probable. Often by the same people time and time again. I know to kill a tiger you need to hit it in specific spots. but to be able to consistently hit those specific spots at longer ranges seems it should be a bit..improbable.
with the key word being consistently.
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Offline 715

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2010, 12:47:01 PM »
So you want the Tiger to be, well, invincible?  OK, maybe reality backs that up.  Say, add dispersion to other tanks (like the SB already has) but keep the Tiger tight.  And, obviously the Germans had way better optics so model that as well.  Then what would the ground game be like?  The Tiger already has a K/D of 5 to 1 against the M4A3(76), 4 against the T34/85, 9.5 vs the Panzer, 72 vs the T34/76, and 95 vs the M4A3(75).  Increase those numbers and all other tanks become useless (well.. even more useless).  Do you really want everyone to drive Tigers?  If they did, how would a Tiger have any advantage left?

Offline R 105

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2010, 12:55:29 PM »
SS Captain Micheal Wittman destroyed 14 British tanks and 15 personnel carriers in 15 minutes all alone in his Tiger at close range including the fire fly. His tank was hit over 60 time and survived the action. The Tiger lost a track later that day and was abandoned but retrieved the next day by the Germans. Now that is a Tiger worth the perk points. In AH my Tiger is being killed at long range by the panzer and the new M-4/76. I even had my turret put out of action by a T-34/76 from the front. I think if anything the Tiger here in AH may be to easy to kill. They do well when bombed and that is about the only time I use them. The Fire Fly is a better choice over all for me as the killing power of its gun is as good as the Tiger here and for about a fourth the perk point cost and is much harder to see sitting in the trees.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2010, 01:27:23 PM »
None of this matters in game. My tank will die first.

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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2010, 06:28:37 PM »
What range is 'long range'? there are some tricks that make 3200yds a fairly easy shot. The range marks actually go out to 6400yds with with how I have things set.


Tiger was harder to kill IRL, because there seems to be a bit of lee way in the armor penetration (instead of getting a ricochet off the M4's front (any model, they should all have the same armor) with an M4A3(76) at 2k, you get a penetration, even though it's gun could only penetrate 96mm of armor, and the M4's armor, factoring in slope, is a bit more than 100mm IIRC). Also, a hit doesn't nessicarily mean a kill, even if your gun could have penetrated another 30mm of armor, a hit still might not mean a kill.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2010, 09:20:50 PM »
What range is 'long range'? there are some tricks that make 3200yds a fairly easy shot. The range marks actually go out to 6400yds with with how I have things set.



And THAT is the problem. It shouldnt be an easy shot no matter what "tricks" you use

3200 yd = 2926.08 m

If what the russian commander says is true ""the T-34 was accurate up to 500 meters. While the Tiger could fire at 1,000 meters accurately"
So your making accurate shots in game almost 3 times as far out as a tiger, and over 5 times the range as a T-34 could IRL
This should NOT be happening



According to Jentz (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.), "The Tiger's armor was invulnerable to attack from most tank guns firing normal armor-piercing shells or shot at ranges over 800 meters, including the American 75 mm and the Russian 76 mm. It is obvious that the 17-pdr. firing normal APCBC rounds could defeat the frontal armor of the Tiger I at most combat ranges for tank vs. tank actions in Europe. However, by 23 June 1944, only 109 Shermans with 17-pdrs. had landed in France along with six replacements. By the end of the war, on 5 May 1945, the British 21st Army Group possessed 1,235 Sherman tanks with 17-pdrs., while the remaining 1,915 Sherman tanks were all equipped with the 75 mm M3 gun". Below, three more tables from the same source (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.), that show clearly the tactical superiority the Tiger I had over its contemporary adversaries:

Tables listed at the link as I couldnt get them to list right here

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2010, 09:32:18 PM »

According to Jentz (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.), "The Tiger's armor was invulnerable to attack from most tank guns firing normal armor-piercing shells or shot at ranges over 800 meters, including the American 75 mm and the Russian 76 mm.


And that's very much the same in AH. Both guns rounds will mostly bounce off the Tiger over 880yds.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2010, 11:46:48 PM »

And that's very much the same in AH. Both guns rounds will mostly bounce off the Tiger over 880yds.

Cept for those that manage to game the game as Nemisis discribes
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Offline Wagger

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Re: Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2010, 08:12:43 AM »
Enough with the negative waves Shuffler.  Remember the loud speakers scare the helll out of the other guys, and the paint rounds are just so...... well you know what I mean.