Author Topic: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.  (Read 1064 times)

Offline AKP

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Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« on: October 21, 2010, 04:58:39 PM »
This is just an attempt to start a little discussion on how involved in the squad specific orders a CiC is when issuing orders to his or her team for an FSO frame.

Currently... we have two very different styles.  There are:

1) CiC's that assign what ordinance and fuel load to take.  What route to take to target. What altitude to fly at.  What time you are expected to hit the target at... in addition to assigning planes and target packages.

And...

2) CiC's that simply plan which squads will take which planes, what role they will be in, and what target they will hit, or defend.

This is not meant to be an attempt to say that one method is better than the other... or to come up with some sort of "standard orders package"... because I believe part of what makes FSO enjoyable each week is the variations that each CiC puts into it.  It is simply to see which squads prefer which methods... and their reasons why.

I can look at this from two different views.  As a CiC... I have used both of the above methods.  My first time in the Big Chair I assigned specific routes, suggested altitudes, as well as fuel and ordinance loadouts.  If you remember, that was the controversial frame where I assigned "pathfinder squads" to knock out radar towers on the way to major targets so that blind spots in the radar could be opened up.  It was the first time we had dot dar in the tower only open to us.

But... for my second time as CiC, I took the approach of assigning planes, roles, and targets... but leaving the details of how and when to get there up to the squad CO's.  I did however include ordinance and fuel suggestions, but did not attempt to dictate it.  My feeling was that the squad CO's know best to complete their mission... all I need do I make sure all the bases were covered.

Now... as a member of a squad receiving orders from  CiC...  I know that our squad prefers the second method.  We enjoy planning the best route to target, how best to hit it, what altitude to come in at, etc etc.  We enjoy coordinating with the other squads in our strike or defense group.

So... back to my original question.  Which method do you and your squad prefer... and why?  Or is it a little of both?

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Offline TUK

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2010, 05:12:22 PM »
<< Prefer number 2 as well.  
I like to give co's  some creative space within the orders.  
However, you are gonna have 2-5 squads that read the orders 5 minutes b4 event. This will hurt you as a cic as they ask ?'s they should already know if they did a lil homework..
If the Co's read the objectives for every frame, then they also read the orders (the whole orders), thats all you can ask as a cic.
Not gonna go into, no-shows.... , Messed up maps.., ect..  :salute

Would be nice to trust all the co's with alt, fuel,loadouts, and time-to target.   
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 05:18:39 PM by TUK »
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Offline slayem

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2010, 05:35:04 PM »
 This is why i love FSO so much. It is an opportunity to get a little taste of multi-unit operations. Known in some circles as tactical and or strategic concentrations in space and or time. It's yummy ain't it. You guys, through your experiences, have also chosen the format preferred by the USA since WWII. Allow your subordinate
commanders the widest possible latitude to accomplish their assigned mission. After all, they are the ones who
must see it done. I think you have chosen wisely. :salute
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Offline AKKuya

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2010, 07:54:53 PM »
That's a hard call to make between the two.  Option 1 reflects a true Command Style whereas Option 2 reflects a "laissez-faire" environment.  Each has advantages and disadvantages.  They both have to ensure everyone "gets their turn at bat".

Ideally, Option 1 would be the best method to truly simulate combat missions.

However, I would have to choose Option 2 for the simple reason that this being a game.  The Option 2 method would give more flexibility to cover all the scenarios that happen to a CIC including:
1) Squad No-Show
2) Squad below minimum attendance
3) Squad(s) not reading orders
4) Squad(s) reading orders and not following assigned orders
5) Squad(s) reading orders and confused by orders resulting in Objective not accomplished

 
If every squad participating would agree on creating another FSO Rule (We always enjoy when another comes into place).  The new FSO rule stated something along the lines. "All squads are mandated to follow the assigned CIC's orders to the letter.  This is to simulate real life combat mission planning and combat mission execution.  This environment will gauge how successful or non-successful the CIC plans are."

Of course, nothing like this would ever come into fruition.  Option 1 would have to rely on one simple fact.  Of the 400 plus players in the FSO, not every single player has had any real life military training to understand the need for a "Chain of Command" and "Obey the last order you were given".

For example, as a CIC few times now in FSO, I would be considered a General for playing purposes.  As a military officer with one or more stars on my shoulders, my battle plan would be carried out to the letter by my subordinate commanders.  Sample orders:

Strike Mission Able:
Escort : LCA (P-51B)
Strike : Swampdragons (B-24)
Forward Sweep : Rolling Thunder (P-51D)

To: CO, LCA, DakOne
From: CIC, Allied Command
You’re to lift from A23 with P-51B’s for escort of Swampdragons.  You’re to take 100% fuel and Drop Tanks for long distance mission.  You’re to maintain a minimum of 5000 feet over the bombers and no more than 5K in front, rear or flanks.  A forward sweep will be designated to another group ahead of your group to drag the enemy CAP over the target, A56.
 
Priority 1) Keep enemy fighters away from bombers till bomb release
Priority 2) Ensure bombers are clear from any enemy trailers on bomber egress route
Priority 3) Communicate with other squad commanders on tactical information

Secondary Mission: After Priority 1 and 2 have been fulfilled, Priority 3 has been discussed and consensus on situation allows, you’re released to hunt down and destroy all remaining enemy fighters.

To: CO, Swampdragons, Jackraid
From: CIC, Allied Command

You’re to lift from A23 with B-24’s with formations enabled.  You’re to take 50% fuel and 500 lb bombs.  Climb to 22,000 ft and level off.  Follow assigned ingress and egress routes outlined with accompanying maps to and from A54.  Drop all hangars on first pass and any strats as possible.  Fly 20 miles away from target and return for second pass to destroy any remaining objects.  After all ordinance has been expended, RTB for recovery operations.  Make sure target is hit before T+60.

Priority 1) Destroy all high valued targets
Priority 2) Destroy all remaining targets
Priority 3) Communicate with other squad commanders on tactical information

To: CO, Rolling Thunder, nikomon
From: CIC, Allied Command

You’re to lift from A23 with P-51D’s for forward fighter sweep over A54.  You’re to take 75% fuel and fuel tanks.  Climb to 25,000 ft and level off.  Engage any defending CAP over target as least 10 minutes before arrival of bombers and drag away from target.

Priority 1) Drag enemy fighters to lower altitudes than bombers   
Priority 2) Destroy as many enemy fighters as possible
Priority 3) Communicate with other squad commanders on tactical information

Secondary Mission: When bombers are clear on final egress route, join with escorting P-51’s and augment Search and Destroy Mission.

Notice that I didn’t assign a Strike Commander or an Escort Commander.  I gave detailed orders to all 3 squads with primary missions and secondary missions for 2 squads.
 
This type of format for CIC orders works only if certain conditions are met
1)   Squads agree to abide by them
2)   Assigned CIC has the free time to do them
3)   Assigned CIC has the means to create detailed maps
4)   Assigned CIC has orders mailed no later than Wednesday
5)   Squad CO’s actually read, disperse to squad the information, and practice the mission

Personally, I would prefer the Option 1 method.  It makes a good sound simulation and determines who was the better planner between opposing CIC’s.  Both planning and execution could be measured with a baseline from the orders written in stone.

Option 2 just allows for one thing.  The wildcard factor.  Strike groups heading west of target rather than south of target.  Aircraft flying NOE instead of 25,000 ft.  Execution would be varied from written orders so no accurate way to determine if results would be greater or lesser than Option 1 method.

Trying to get 400 plus players to agree on Option 1 would be well after HTC incorporates the B-29 Super Fortress and then still be another 2 weeks.  Looks like Option 2 will win by default.
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Offline TUK

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2010, 08:15:40 PM »
Wow Kuya, That took me 2 drinks to read.... :salute
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:17:19 PM by TUK »
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Offline FiLtH

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2010, 10:06:34 PM »
  There was a time I really enjoyed seeing very complicated orders. Things like time tables, "Xsquad will be over target T+40". Now I really like it simple.

~AoM~

Offline AKKuya

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2010, 08:21:29 AM »
Wow Kuya, That took me 2 drinks to read.... :salute
(Image removed from quote.)

2 drinks?   I was aiming for the whole bottle. :rofl
Chuck Norris can pick oranges from an apple tree and make the best lemonade in the world. Every morning when you wake up, swallow a live toad. Nothing worse can happen to you for the rest of the day. They say money can't buy happiness. I would like the opportunity to find out. Why be serious?

Offline Viper61

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2010, 09:36:58 PM »
Good topic AKP.  As the 325th VFG planner the best orders are the simple orders.  But they also have to be complete orders as well.  As far as the level of detail go's that depends upon the scenario the CM's come up with.  All missions are risky, the "plan" reduces that risk to a exceptable level for the CIC.

I favor a combination of the two options you highlight and also agree with AKKuya's comments which are very good.

Also some missions like defensive missions aren't difficult to plan.  So they can be simply stated.  However Strike missions combining different squads conducting different parts of the mission can get complex as timing becomes critical.  In those cases the CIC needs to explain very clearly and as simply as possible what that squad is doing and how they fit into the greater mission.  To accomplish that task the CIC should use whatever means of media he or she sees fit.  In most cases if you do the following your good to go:

Build your Task Organization matrix (the spreedsheets we all now normally see)
The graphics (The map with routes and targets)
A missions task sheet  (a short word based document explaining what missions they have along with any coordinating instructions)



Mission planning aside if the squads will coordinate via email prior to the mission start the chances of survival greatly increase.  Something every squad should do within 12 hours of receiving the Op Ord.  And another reason why it is so important to get the Op Ord's out by Wednesday or earlier.

Good topic.

Offline daddog

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2010, 10:43:28 AM »
Excellent thread.  :aok
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Offline AKP

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2010, 04:00:00 PM »
I can definitely see where there would be cases when a little extra planning on the CiC's part would be needed...  perhaps if timing were critical in hitting one target, and it was key to the success of another strike group hitting theirs.  Or in the case of making one base flash in order to make the opponent think the attack is coming from one direction, when it is actually coming from another.

I also think that including planning tools like...

The Ordinance vs Object Hardness Chart

or

AKDogg's Fuel Calculator

...along with the orders package can give CO's some valuable insight on just how to plan their fuel and ordinance load-outs to maximize damage and range.

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Offline TUK

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2010, 04:43:03 PM »
Nice post AKP...   I could'nt have said it any better myself. Always included in my orders are AKDogg's  fuel calculator (with his permission of course).   

Everyone that has posted here are destiguished Cic's... :salute
We all have our own way of doing the orders.  I just hope some of the new cic's can learn from you guy's.  :cheers:
Ps. AKP, we think alike....
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Offline perdue3

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2010, 12:00:12 PM »
As a CO, I like to be given target, plane, home base. I take pride in planning FSO hours before launch, testing fuel so that we can get as light as possible, and testing enemy theories of where they might be patrolling/entering target area from. Therefore I prefer the second method that AKP explained. No disrespect, but if a CiC gives me complete orders (method 1) and I do not completely agree, I will email him about to see if we could reach some agreement. If he says no, I do as I am ordered. Howeer all CiC's should keep in mind that there are different types of CO's also. The ones that want it easy as possible, "tell me what to do and I'll do it", then you have those like me that wait ALL week (or 3  :mad: ) for FSO and can't wait to put their theory to work.

As a CiC, I give CO's disgretion on as much as possible, even airplanes sometimes. However, Kermit taught me this a long time ago, some CO's and people who participate in FSO are here to have fun and take a break from MA. Those people will fly rides that they are not familiar with so some tips could be helpful. I will, as a CiC, not give complete orders but I will suggest a few things that I might think will work. That way I can account for that CO that reads the orders 5 minutes prior to launch. Even though he is a little behind, i have given a "suggested" plan for him already. I always stress "suggestion" though. I want the Axis CO's to do as they please. If we succeed it was due to a mix of things:

1) Good overall tactical planning by CiC
2) Good thorough planning by individual CO's
3) Great execution from internal squadmembers


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« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 12:03:15 PM by perdue3 »
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Offline AKKuya

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2010, 02:46:27 PM »
The hardest part is assigning rides.  I use a little formula for Frame 2.

Squad A for Frame 1 was perked fighter then Frame 2 would be bomber.
Squad B for Frame 1 was underpowered fighter then Frame 2 would be a perked fighter.
Squad C for Frame 1 was bomber then Frame 2 would be any fighter.

For Frame 3, then looking at each squad rides for Frames 1 and Frame 2 then try the best way to equal them out.


I also use "Share the Wealth" and "Share the Debt".  When assigning the perked fighters with max limits, I'll "Share the Wealth" with 2 squads for that ride and secondary fighter for each squad.  Same approach for "Share the Debt" for bomber rides between squads with secondary rides in fighters and underpowered fighters with secondary fighter.

There are times that isn't possible due to objectives, aircraft list with max and min, and number of squads plus the commitment levels.  I try to make things as even as possible.  Every CIC has their approach.
Chuck Norris can pick oranges from an apple tree and make the best lemonade in the world. Every morning when you wake up, swallow a live toad. Nothing worse can happen to you for the rest of the day. They say money can't buy happiness. I would like the opportunity to find out. Why be serious?

Offline AKP

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2010, 03:01:16 PM »
The hardest part is assigning rides. 

I would agree with you there Kuya.  It is difficult to balance "what is needed" for the mission, vs. "what is wanted" by the squads.  No one likes getting stuck in rides that are outmatched, or being in bombers every frame.  But with a wide variation in squad sizes, and with the "min & max" limits, you cant always give them what they want.  For the most part, I think the squads understand that. 

Thanks for all the good feedback everyone!  :aok

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Offline ghostdancer

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Re: Being in the "Big Chair"... What and what not to plan.
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2010, 03:45:29 PM »
Also agree on this being a nice discussion.

Personally I like detailed orders however, not battle plan survives contact with the enemy. So in truth CiCs and squads need to be flexible to cover situations that arise from actual battle. Like a squad being destroyed before hitting a target. A CiC might make the call that their target is more valuable to hit than another and re-adjust his plans accordingly to change follow up strikes to hit it instead of other targets that were written into his orders.

A battle is fluid thing and sometimes it just forces participants to adapt. Many commanders have lost battles do to treating them as set piece actions and not reacting to events.

I know many CiCs actually will not fly during their frame so that they can concentrate on getting reports on the action, judging how things are going, and the re-prioritizing missions and objectives for his surviving forces as things unfold.
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