Skuzzy ?

[MADe]

Hey Skuzzy,

Whats the current line of thought, at AH control, on the use or non-use of V-Sync in AH game video settings? Especially with the latest hardware advances.

Using V-sync will choke a high end system, with monitor at 60MHz, bascically negating high end hardware.
What about the modern LCD monitors that use a 250MHz refresh rate, v-sync here would gve a FPS of 250, no?

Just inquizative is all.

[Skuzzy]

Vertical sync should be enabled in the game.  The only time you would disable it would be if you want to test your computer.

It does not hamper high performance hardware.  Quite the opposite.  Frame rates that float around are a problem.  No matter what you believe, you cannot see more than the vertical refresh rate the monitor will deliver.  In other words;  When you see 300+FPS in the information display of the game, your monitor is STILL only allowing 60FPS to be displayed.

With that, you never know what frame you are actually seeing, when you have vertical sync disabled.  The same frame is being repainted over and over again, then suddenly, in the middle of a frame, the image shifts causing tearing due to data over-writing the frame buffer.

There are just so many things that can go wrong with vertical sync disabled, from rubber bullets to screen tearing, to jerky motion, it is silly to consider disabling it.  Your monitor cannot display anything faster than its vertical sync rate will allow.

[Masherbrum]

Vertical sync should be enabled in the game.  The only time you would disable it would be if you want to test your computer.

It does not hamper high performance hardware.  Quite the opposite.  Frame rates that float around are a problem.  No matter what you believe, you cannot see more than the vertical refresh rate the monitor will deliver.  In other words;  When you see 300+FPS in the information display of the game, your monitor is STILL only allowing 60FPS to be displayed.

With that, you never know what frame you are actually seeing, when you have vertical sync disabled.  The same frame is being repainted over and over again, then suddenly, in the middle of a frame, the image shifts causing tearing due to data over-writing the frame buffer.

There are just so many things that can go wrong with vertical sync disabled, from rubber bullets to screen tearing, to jerky motion, it is silly to consider disabling it.  Your monitor cannot display anything faster than its vertical sync rate will allow.

This should be stickied.

[MADe]

Hmmm,

3DMark 06, when it runs it does not use V-sync. If I choose to force V-sync on for benchmark, I can. The benchmark score is cut by almost 40% with V-sync used.
Now why would bench marking software disable V-sync if it is so valuable? Their purpose is to mimic high end game environment, no?
I have been experimenting and I find my screen does not show any of the side affects of non v-sync use. I realize that having my puter running at a higher frame rate offers no game advantage but I see no reason to force 60fps when my puter is set to run fast and can handle a higher frame rate.

What about the monitors with higher refresh rates? Sony has 250MHz monitors, using V-sync there should give you 250FPS, if you are using v-sync as it was designed.

[guncrasher]

Everybody talks about 60 fps because most people have monitors with max refrsh rate of 60.  If yours. An handle 120 then set it to 120 assuming your system can handle it. But if i understand right gpus can send a gazillion frames but the minitor will only display its refresh rate (60 in mine) and if it doesnt finish displaying a frame before it gets the next then it will not finish it and tearing will appear.
Semp

[The Fugitive]

Hmmm,

3DMark 06, when it runs it does not use V-sync. If I choose to force V-sync on for benchmark, I can. The benchmark score is cut by almost 40% with V-sync used.
Now why would bench marking software disable V-sync if it is so valuable? Their purpose is to mimic high end game environment, no?
I have been experimenting and I find my screen does not show any of the side affects of non v-sync use. I realize that having my puter running at a higher frame rate offers no game advantage but I see no reason to force 60fps when my puter is set to run fast and can handle a higher frame rate.

What about the monitors with higher refresh rates? Sony has 250MHz monitors, using V-sync there should give you 250FPS, if you are using v-sync as it was designed.

Why does 3DMark06 disable v-sync..... hmmmm lets read Skuzzy first line again....

"Vertical sync should be enabled in the game.  The only time you would disable it would be if you want to test your computer."

Imagine that! A test program disabling v-sync to test the graphics system. 

You ASK for his opinion, then you complain about his answer because it's not the one you wanted to hear. Can't please everyone I guess.

[Tigger29]

It's like this... let's take an uber l33t video card that can put out 300fps and pair it to a monitor which can only put out 60fps.

Turn V-sync on, the video card only puts out 60fps.

Turn V-sync off, the video card puts out 300 fps, but the monitor can only display 60fps, so that extra 240 fps that is generated by the video card just go *poof*... wasted energy... wasted processing power... wasted effort.  On top of that, sometimes those 240 extra fps can 'bleed over' onto the 60 that actually get shown which can cause problems.  So why WOULDN'T you want to turn Vsync on?  There is nothing to gain by leaving V-sync off because you're still limited by your monitor.

Got an UBER FAST 240hz monitor?  Leaving V-sync on will then allow the video card to output up to 240 fps.  V-sync doesn't limit it to 60fps, it limits it to the monitor's speed.  60fps is given as an example here because 90% of the 'affordable' monitors that we use only do 60fps.  If your monitor can handle more, then more power to you!  Chances are that your eyes/mind aren't going to be able to see a difference between 60fps and anything higher though.  There are other reasons to have a 120hz and/or 240hz monitor than for UBER FAST FPS in games.

Download and read my ACES HIGH GRAPHICS GUIDE.  You might learn something.

Want to test what the video card is capable of?  Turn Vsync OFF.  This is why benchmarking software does that, because they test what the video card is capable of by measuring FPS under different circumstance.  It can't get a valid reading if it is limited to 60fps.  Then you can get an accurate reading of what your video card is capable of.  You can turn on more eye-candy and increase more settings until your frame rate stays just above 60 (assuming this is your monitor's limit).. then you can get an idea of how much stuff you can turn on before you start seeing performance issues... then turn Vsync back on and you're good to go.

[zack1234]

Main thing is not very high frame rates, stable frame rate is important

[The Fugitive]

Main thing is not very high frame rates, stable frame rate is important

Same with the network connections. A stable dial-up connection is better than a cable connection that is all over the place.

[MADe]

Why does 3DMark06 disable v-sync..... hmmmm lets read Skuzzy first line again....

"Vertical sync should be enabled in the game.  The only time you would disable it would be if you want to test your computer."

Imagine that! A test program disabling v-sync to test the graphics system.  

You ASK for his opinion, then you complain about his answer because it's not the one you wanted to hear. Can't please everyone I guess.

But Out,
I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.

[BoilerDown]

But Out,
I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.

Maybe so, but as soon as Skuzzy sees this he's going to tell you that the question has already been correctly answered.

What about the monitors with higher refresh rates? Sony has 250MHz monitors, using V-sync there should give you 250FPS, if you are using v-sync as it was designed.

I haven't heard of such a monitor, but if it exists, then yes, that would be correct, assuming your video card was up to the task.

[guncrasher]

Made not sure what yiur question is because you yourself answered your own questions.

Vsync on will have the limit refresh rate of whatever your monitor can handle.  Be it 60 or 250.  But as skuzzy said having it off wont give you more than it can handle.  Only tells you how many frames are being produced but the monitor will only display its refresh rate. Be it 60 or 250.

Like on my system with vsync off my system. Will produce about 300 fps.  But my monitor will only display 60, its refresh rate.  If i had a monitor that could display 250 then only 250 would be displayed.  Even if the gpu says 300.  The other 50 the monitor would not display properly causing tearing. 

But i bet you have never seen tearing and that is where it gets confusing because i am.  With vsync off i never see anything weird, except for rubber bullets.

Semp

[The Fugitive]

But Out,
I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.

If your trying to have a "private" discussion perhaps you should try email. By posting on an open board you'll get all kinds of answers from all kinds of people.

My post was only pointing out that you had already got the answer. Rephrasing the question isn't going to change the answer. Perhaps you asked the wrong question?

oh and by the way, you have "paid" to play the game, the boards are free. 

[Masherbrum]

But Out,
I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.

Then you never should have started this thread and instead used the Personal Message function of the BBS.   But Skuzzy answered your questions with a very thorough and accurate post.   

[Ack-Ack]

But Out,
I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.

Maybe you shouldn't dismiss the answers that were given to you out of hand just because you don't agree with them despite them being correct.

ack-ack