Spitfire vs Mustang vs Bf-109 vs Fw-190

[Ardy123]

Can you point us to these articles and opinions?  Are you talking about real 51s or in game 51 flying?

The goal of any real life wartime pilot is to have height and speed on his opponent.  That doesn't mean it always happened.  Also didn't mean that 51 pilots didn't dogfight when they had to.

In the case of the late '44/'45 air war over Europe for the American/British side, it almost always was in the P51s favor. The Americans/British out numbered the Germans by a significant magnitude. Many of the major battles involved over 1000+ US aircraft. Many complain about hoards now, could you imagine if all the 'AH should be like WW2' people had their way? It would be a completely lopsided hording nightmare.

here look at the some of the numbers.

March 6, 1944: The first large scale US attack on Berlin (some 600 bombers) drop 1600 tons of bombs
July 23/24, 1944: The first major raid (629 British aircraft) on a German city for two months bombs Kiel
July 25, 1944: Mission 494 (1581/500 USA bombers/fighters) supporting Operation Cobra
February 13-15, 1945: The Bombing of Dresden in World War II (1300 bombers)
March 12, 1945: A Dortmund raid of 1108 aircraft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_air_operations_during_the_Battle_of_Europe

[Guppy35]

Suggest some digging into the February to May 44 time frame where the Mustangs were first in combat.

We seem to be talking about the ability of the Mustang to fight.

Most certainly the sorties the Allies could put up from mid 44 on were far greater then the Luftwaffe.    The OP's suggestion seems to be that the 51 couldn't hold it's own in 1 v 1 combat, and I'd suggest that this belief is wrong based on some of the combat reports of that time in early 44 where it was a battle for air superiority over Germany.  This wasn't horde em, BnZ time, this was knock down, drag em out, fights.  Add that the 51s were suffering from any number of mechanical problems common to new birds in combat too.

Where the Mustang puts them all to shame is that it could fight both in close(search Y-29) and on the other guys turf, had far greater range then any other potential escort fighter beyond the Lightning, and was much more economical to produce and maintain then the 38.

[MiloMorai]

Suggest some digging into the February to May 44 time frame where the Mustangs were first in combat.

Very good advice Dan.

[Perrine]

Suggest some digging into the February to May 44 time frame where the Mustangs were first in combat.

that's for Mustang Bs right?

[Guppy35]

that's for Mustang Bs right?

51Bs it is.  The 51D made it's appearance at the end of May 44 so it was there for D-Day although the 51B/C was still the dominant model in the fighter groups into probably July 44 when attrition and D model deliveries changed the balance.  You could find B/C models in the Fighter Groups right til the end of the war in Europe.

[pervert]

Well I'm personally glad that you've exposed these HTC guys and their couple of decades worth of experience with your recent research! It was bound to happen eventually! And to think they've been successfully running a business doing it as well all these years makes my blood boil!!  

Hopefully HTC will buck up their ideas and do some recent research themselves! This farce has gone on long enough!  

[Acidrain]

i dont think the mission of the 109's at the time was "engage the P51 and find out which plane is better at turning" The 109's were trying to kill Bombers that were destroying their countries ability to fight. The P51's were a distraction from that objective and most fights probably started with the Pony having the advantage.

[Bino]

Wing47, with respect, your research thus far has just barely scratched the surface.  Wing loading, for example, is very hard to accurately pin down.  Respectable, original sources often differ by quite a bit, and that's just about wing loading.  Center of balance is relevent to the discussion, but similarly hard to quantify, and only one from a rather long list of germaine measurements.  You would need to have multiple, original, verified sources providing a LOT more numbers than what you have listed here.  Finally, in order to truly critique the AH flight models, you would need to have all the data that HTC plugged into the formula, and the formula itself.  HTC is not about to share either, since that would be giving away the farm (see also "hackers").

[Guppy35]

i dont think the mission of the 109's at the time was "engage the P51 and find out which plane is better at turning" The 109's were trying to kill Bombers that were destroying their countries ability to fight. The P51's were a distraction from that objective and most fights probably started with the Pony having the advantage.

Suggest you go dig a bit deeper.  To get at the bombers the fighters needed to be drawn off.  Most certainly their were LW units that engaged the fighters.   Keep in mind that the LW was operating over their turf with their radar and ground controllers to put them in position for the bounce on the bombers and fighters coming in.

Was the Mustang able to fight when it had to?  Yes.   

[FLOTSOM]

Suggest you go dig a bit deeper.  To get at the bombers the fighters needed to be drawn off.  Most certainly their were LW units that engaged the fighters.   Keep in mind that the LW was operating over their turf with their radar and ground controllers to put them in position for the bounce on the bombers and fighters coming in.

Was the Mustang able to fight when it had to?  Yes.   

Guppy i have spent that last hour looking but cant find the article that i read that actually partially contradicts your statement. hitler and goering gave the order to the LW that it was to avoid contact with the fighter escort as much as possible and to engage only the bombers. the bombers were the threat to the populace and the war machine not the fighters they were mere pests.

the article was an interview with a region commander, if i could remember how to spell his name i could find it. sorry i cant find it directly but if you have time look, let me know if you find it. it was a good article.

[Perrine]

correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm sure LW did go after fighters and fighter/bombers when US conducted tactical missions (usually lower alt compared to strat mission?)

[Guppy35]

Guppy i have spent that last hour looking but cant find the article that i read that actually partially contradicts your statement. hitler and goering gave the order to the LW that it was to avoid contact with the fighter escort as much as possible and to engage only the bombers. the bombers were the threat to the populace and the war machine not the fighters they were mere pests.

the article was an interview with a region commander, if i could remember how to spell his name i could find it. sorry i cant find it directly but if you have time look, let me know if you find it. it was a good article.

The key to knocking down the bombers was to open a spot in the cover so that other fighters could attack the bombers without escort.  Certain Fighter Groups were better then others at 'staying with the bombers'.  The 359th of the 8th AF and the 332nd of the 15th AF in particular were known for not getting sucked away.   You have to keep in mind a bomber stream that is very long, with groups assigned to cover different parts of that stream. 

Certainly the bombers were the main priority and killing a many bombers as possible meant either getting through the fighters or sucking them off so that others could go into the unprotected gap.

Not near the book collection at the moment, but will find stuff to support it when I get the chance. 

[Guppy35]

Wading through the massive 2 volume set on JG300.  The same theme over and over again in pilot reports.  "Turning fights",  "Dogfights from 9000 meters to the deck",  "Positioning ourselves 1000 meters higher then the escorts"  etc.

The other theme from the summer of 44 to the end.  "Aggressive Mustangs".

Still trying to find the specific story regarding drawing the fighters away.  I'd typed it up for the DGS scenario and it was about the Merseberg Raid in November 44.  lost all that in the great computer crash of 2010   Oscar Boesch is the pilot quoted.  He was a 190 driver.

Jeff Ethell and Alfred Price's book "Target Berlin" about the March 6, 1944 raid on Berlin talks about the 109s.  The majority of the 109s had the added gondolas for attacking the bombers, which made their performance suffer in terms of combat against fighters.  There were 4 groups of 109s not equipped for attacking the bombers that were 'high cover' as their smaller armament made them 'useless' in attacking bombers but left them better able to combat American fighters.  They were to get the heavy fighters, both 109s and 190s and 110s and 410s through the fighter escort and remain up sun and higher to protect them.


Bottom line is the notion that the Mustangs sat up high and just BnZ'd the LW planes is wrong.  Would they if they could?  Sure.  Again, the LW had the radar and ground controll to direct their fighters to the bomber stream and set them up for the best position to do so.  The Mustangs had to fight from that position.  The other interesting note in the JG300 stuff is how the numbers were more equal in the dogfights as they were attacking certain sections of the bomber stream and escorts not all at once, so it wasn't 1000 American planes against 200 German, but smaller engagements of 20+ fighters or something similar.

[pervert]

The key to knocking down the bombers was to open a spot in the cover so that other fighters could attack the bombers without escort.  Certain Fighter Groups were better then others at 'staying with the bombers'.  The 359th of the 8th AF and the 332nd of the 15th AF in particular were known for not getting sucked away.   You have to keep in mind a bomber stream that is very long, with groups assigned to cover different parts of that stream. 

Certainly the bombers were the main priority and killing a many bombers as possible meant either getting through the fighters or sucking them off so that others could go into the unprotected gap.

Not near the book collection at the moment, but will find stuff to support it when I get the chance. 

 

[Tec]

If the name fits wear it