Tank Town GV bombing solution

[dirtdart]

Sky there are unfortunately a lot of things that should be re written because most of the etiquette I was brow beaten to learn largely does not apply anymore to the xboxers. 

[Dichotomy]

Dirt you know I respect you and all but for the love of all that is good and holy I've been practically BEGGING you GV guys to organize and come to the AVA for at least a roll at it.   Id be willing to bet good money that if you and a group of guys decided to set up a day or two a week you'd be left to your own devices on the ground.  Talk to the staff over there and see what you can come up with then come have your epic battles.  I'll even cheerfully run supplies for a side or see if I can up a tank without getting slaughtered over and over and over.

If you can put something together and I can be of any help it sounds like a win / win to me.

Three of us were in there last night doing the whole tank thing, laughing our rears off, and giving each other a hard time on one. I'll probably drive around in a tank early tonight and see what kind of havoc I can cause.   

At least give it a shot and see what you can make out of it.  There are lots of interesting terrains that are simply PERFECT for ground battles (trust me I know I've run a jeep over the majority of them). 

[dedalos]

Dirt you know I respect you and all but for the love of all that is good and holy I've been practically BEGGING you GV guys to organize and come to the AVA for at least a roll at it.   Id be willing to bet good money that if you and a group of guys decided to set up a day or two a week you'd be left to your own devices on the ground.  Talk to the staff over there and see what you can come up with then come have your epic battles.  I'll even cheerfully run supplies for a side or see if I can up a tank without getting slaughtered over and over and over.

If you can put something together and I can be of any help it sounds like a win / win to me.

Three of us were in there last night doing the whole tank thing, laughing our rears off, and giving each other a hard time on one. I'll probably drive around in a tank early tonight and see what kind of havoc I can cause.   

At least give it a shot and see what you can make out of it.  There are lots of interesting terrains that are simply PERFECT for ground battles (trust me I know I've run a jeep over the majority of them). 

I think a couple years back they used to run something like that in the AvA every Tuesday?  Not sure on the day, but I remember jumping on a plane and being asked to get in a GV cause that is what they did that day.  So, I did and died a lot lol

[Simaril]

Don't forget that knives cut both ways. If we start with dedicated tank towns, how can there be an argument against dedicated fighter towns? Then, we see the "win the war" folks fussing that everyone is in this town and that town is just messing around and not doing the important stuff to win.

In other words, once you start subdividing, it's only going to make for conflict. It REDUCES the game, it doesn't add to it.


I know that because I've seen it. Back in the day there was a PHENOMENAL map called the "Donut". It had a massive fighter town (the inspiration for the one now in the DA), surrounded by very high mountains. A ring of water, then the rest of the map was a nicely designed string of vehicle bases separated from the air bases, making for vehicle base battles with less air interference. Plenty of airbases around the periphery with carrier battles along the edge.

Trouble was, the layout accidentally pitted each AH faction against the other. Everybody whined about everybody. And in the end, HT pulled the map.

So don't hold your breath, bud. If things went bad when a FIGHTER town was set up in for a primarily air-combat game, how do you think a GV town will do any good whatsoever?

[Dichotomy]

I think a couple years back they used to run something like that in the AvA every Tuesday?  Not sure on the day, but I remember jumping on a plane and being asked to get in a GV cause that is what they did that day.  So, I did and died a lot lol

ya I think that was just getting started up before my sabbatical.  I also recall pulling plenty of your lead donations out of my posterior

[Lusche]

<snip>

And this (combined with the fact that the player base isn't used to a TT concept anymore) is why I personally would like to see a different approach. And once TT bases are being taken, it makes things even worse, no more "GV heaven" and a lot of bad blood between players (exactly what happened with FT bases on donut)

I had a different "CraterMA" setup designed once. The while map was basically the crater, with the crater rim being near the map edge. All airfields were inside the crater, but there was to be a string of Vbases beyond the 15K rim walls, in a circle all around the map. These bases were going to be arranged in pairs just like V135-V136 on Ozkansas



A few of these  bases would have had connections to the land inside the crater, including one uncapturable Vbase near HQ, so that a country has always the option to take it back.

This setup would have a few advantages:
- The paired setup makes for some great battles. No side having the initial home turf advantage greatly encourages players to spawn in.
- It's not "sacred" - bases are still meant to be taken, which is for many players an incentive to start some action in the first place.
- There are plenty of them, so taking a few doesn't matter, and the setup is being so that one side can always fight it's way back
- The use of aircraft is not being made impossible, just being made somewhat difficult. But unlike a central crater terrain, it's beign made more & more difficult the more rim bases a country captures.

I may try to make a quick sketch later tonight...

[Simaril]

I remember the Pizza dealt with this by having the V bases in very narrow canyons - greatly limited the ability for indiscriminate air attacks, and made for some hair raising fighter work if you dropped in there...

[dedalos]

ya I think that was just getting started up before my sabbatical.  I also recall pulling plenty of your lead donations out of my posterior

That was back when I could see you 

[waystin2]

In other words, once you start subdividing, it's only going to make for conflict. It REDUCES the game, it doesn't add to it.

I completely agree Simaril.  I prefer the one big sandbox for all approach.

[dirtdart]

BEGGING you GV guys to organize and come to the AVA for at least a roll at it.   

I enjoy the AvA, the limitation I have is my window of time to play (personally) does not coincide with scenarios or when there are large player populations.  I am not a pure GV guy.  I just enjoy GVing to unwind from some AC fighting.  Drink a beer, use terrain, etc...

Don't forget that knives cut both ways. If we start with dedicated tank towns, how can there be an argument against dedicated fighter towns? Then, we see the "win the war" folks fussing that everyone is in this town and that town is just messing around and not doing the important stuff to win...So don't hold your breath, bud. If things went bad when a FIGHTER town was set up in for a primarily air-combat game, how do you think a GV town will do any good whatsoever?

Again, I am not asking for any change to a current map layout or a specific GV town.  Just a physical barrier that will reduce the probability of a guy with bombs, bombing guys in GVs on main TT, on whichever map.  My potential "cheap" solution is a mere layer of clouds, low enough to prevent bombers, but high enough to allow IL-2s and 25Hs if they want.  It would not interrupt the fighter fights, if anything it would promote them because the WWs and Osti would not be able to see their mark.  

Yesterday myself and another squaddie dropped the ords on the Bish and rook fields, yeah it too about 20 minutes to get there and back.  During that 20 minutes, a huge fight evolved and I got into it a bit late when both sides established lines and positions.  So yes, a couple of players can selflessly dropped the ords to promote GV fights.  But, is someone going to do that every 45 minutes?  Most of the time I jump in a tank it is for over an hour anyway.  

Bottom line, clouds seemed like an easy fix.  TT does not change.  The fact that there are air bases does not change, and the center island is not where the strategic fight is based from so it does not alter the entire map.  This is often illustrated when the (insert dweeb country here) take the whole island, and it pretty much gets left alone until the map reset.  

I completely agree Simaril.  I prefer the one big sandbox for all approach.

So do I.  This is not a new map or strategic map alteration, just a low cost approach to reducing the dive boming of GVs in a very small portion of the maps, probably 25 mile diameter circle, only on the center island.

[Simaril]

  This is not a new map or strategic map alteration, just a low cost approach to reducing the dive boming of GVs in a very small portion of the maps, probably 25 mile diameter circle, only on the center island.

You're not asking for much of a change, but I'm not sure you realize how divisive any accommodation to one faction can be.

In my experience, AH works best when ALL players of ALL types are drawn into the same areas, each by their own specific play style, so everyone can shoot at everyone without discrimination. When tankers draw in dive bombers, that draws in Osty gunners and killers of Jabos. That draws in fighter vs fighter guys, which gets the bombing people to try higher alt approaches -- and every layer is doing their own thing. Every Mongoose with its own Snake, a giant Rock/paper/scissors conflaguration.

So if your particular Rock is feeling covered by paper, wouldn't it make more sense to come up with a way to attract more scissors, instead of banning paper?

[waystin2]

So if your particular Rock is feeling covered by paper, wouldn't it make more sense to come up with a way to attract more scissors, instead of banning paper?

Making sense can get you screamed at around here.

[dirtdart]

You're not asking for much of a change, but I'm not sure you realize how divisive any accommodation to one faction can be.

I guess where our opinions diverge is on the accommodation piece. Most elements enjoy some environmental benefit that can afford them an advantage over other elements.  In AC, you can usually climb higher than the other guy if you are patient.  You can dive bomb out of the reach of a WW or Osti.  A layer of clouds usually sits around 15-17k which can hinder bombing if they are thick enough.  Ships can only get so close to the shore.  Ships have devastating FLAK which is radar guided and can afford them some protection against AC.  In a 3 dimensional fight, where you have aircraft and tanks, the tanks do not stand a chance against aircraft.  There is nothing they can do to escape the effects of a one thousand pound bomb.  A while back you could park on a knoll and sometimes not receive damage from a near miss, not really the case anymore.  So you do have an imbalance.  It is very frustrating (not a stinking whine you flamers out there) to have a great 10-15 GV fight going on and then have a lone A 20 come out, break the fight up.  We all play this game for our own reasons.  I feel there are many in the community who do enjoy GVing occasionally and would appreciate a singular spot on the map where they have a chance against bomb laden AC who require visibility and altitude to conduct an effective attack.  

Making sense can get you screamed at around here.

Bah...  metaphor. 

[waystin2]

In all seriousness Dirt, I enjoy GV'ing more than most of the AH'ers out there.  I get bombed, I'll up a fighter and kill them.  Or I'll up a Wirbel and go to town.  I think what most folks disagree with is the want to disconnect from the rest of the arena, when it's the dynamic of everything land, sea & air that makes the arenas the fun place to be.  There are multitudes of options and layers of attacks/defenses to employ that will allow you success in your GV endeavours.  Sometimes you get to do the tanking, sometimes you are protecting the tankers.  Sometimes you are fighting the guys trying to get the guys protecting the tankers.  And round and round she goes...  That is where the fun comes in.  Not being snarky with you Sir, just saying embrace the chaos of the arenas for the fun that they can be.
 

Way

[The Fugitive]

Everyone can say the same thing about each type of game play as well.

Bombers hate getting shot down, as long as the fighter is smart and patient the buff doesn't stand a chance (which is why they traveled in very large groups).

Dive bombers hate getting picked while they are heavy. If a fighter is smart he catches him while heavy, or at the top of his zoom if he doesn't lawndart. Wirbles and osty's setup so that dive bombers dive in a strait line so it is easier for them to shoot dive bombers.

And then we have the GVs, to avoid getting bombed made you should move around a bit....... Oh ya that spoils the spawmcamp.