Author Topic: AH compared to RL airplanes  (Read 3360 times)

Offline jimson

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2011, 11:34:22 PM »
This one is close to me, might have to check them out
http://www.fightercombat.com/

Offline ink

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2011, 11:42:41 PM »
Thanx RV will def check it out, and the one Jimson posted.

Offline Brooke

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2011, 01:40:23 AM »
Brooke~Air combat USA, ive read about that, and so want to go its in Cali right?  what was the cost? how long of a course is it?  Is that the place they do 'lazer tag'? For the firing? shooting? this is something I am very intrested in, I would love to hear about your expierences there, was it worth the money? Like I said on my 40th Bday I took up a super decathalon, it cost  $180 for about a half hour, I woulda paid way more then that lol, and now I have a major desire to do it again,  I cant even explain the feelings I got when we first lifted off, and just flying before we got to the area for aerobatics, I know if I had the money I would most certainly buy a plane, I saw an F4U for sale fully working condition lol $800,000, but when I took my flight there was a small trick byplane for 40k, much more possible(someday) anyway thanx in advance for any info and stories you may pass on.        Paul

It was many years ago when I went, and I think the cost was $800 per person.  I looked at their site (www.aircombatusa.com), and it seems to be about $1400 per person today.  I went to Fighter Combat USA in Fullerton, California.

I was very lucky, and a friend paid my way back then as a gift.  Thank you, JWolff (of the Muskateers)!  <S>  I would say, though, that it is worth it to do it once in your life if you can.  The other aviation-related thing to do at least once in a lifetime (in my opinion) is a ride on the Collings Foundation B-24.  That costs about $400, lasts about half an hour (during which you can go everywhere in the plane, fore, aft, all gun positions except ball turret, through the bomb bay, to the flight deck, etc.) and what it is like is described in great detail here:
http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/b24_flights/b24_2005.html

At Air Combat USA, when I went, they fit us in before their normal runs (as it was the only time my friends had available, and they accomodated us).  So, they went through the pre-flight stuff very fast:  "This is a parachute, here is the handle, if I yell 'Eject, eject, eject', get out right away", etc.  You suit up, you get in the plane, and out you go.  If you can handle it, they let you fly formation out to the dogfight area and back, but they will do the take off and landing.

In the dogfight area, they took me quickly through some maneuvers (some loops, rolls, high and low yo yo's, etc.) and explained them as ACM maneuvers (but I already knew that).  Two planes will fight while you circle and watch.  When it is done, they set up up for you.  Just like a duel in the DA, you approach each other head on, and when you pass, fight is on.  You work to get your sight on the other plane and hold it there.  While it is on the other plane, the instructor was looking through his side of the sight, calling "Tracking, tracking, tracking!" if I was holding the sight on the other plane.  If I held it for a couple of seconds, he then called "guns, guns, guns", and if I still was on target, he counted it as a kill.  The other plane then would turn on smoke.  At least that's how they did it when I was there.

The thing I liked about it was to see what it was like to dogfight in a prop plane, with all of the usual moves done in AH.  The only drawback was that I felt very airsick for a good portion of the day afterward -- but it was worth it. :)

Offline ink

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2011, 09:16:49 AM »
man that had to have been an absolute blast, im getting up there in age I need to do this before to long $1400 seems cheap and well worth it, but with 6 kids, not gonna happen any time soon for me:-( but man that would be a day to remember, its so strange for me, I feel I was ment to fly and cant stop thinking about the one time I went up, you are one lucky SOB :-)  as far as a ride in the 24 as bad as I want to fly the props, I have no intrest in the bombers actually I cant stand the idea of them lol, since 04 ive been in a bomber in AH maybe twice, I guess it would be cool to see what the guys who flew them had to deal with and what not but I think I have a fear of the big planes lol...oh but to fly a prop, when I took my flight after the first roll I was yelling uncontrollably 'F@# ya' the guy who took me up was like 'see the red button on the stick?' I say ya, he says 'dont hit it I dont care but the tower will' lol, about the yelling and swearing. Anyway thanx for responce~Paul

Offline Oldman731

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2011, 10:56:59 AM »
I was very lucky, and a friend paid my way back then as a gift. 

Heh.  Same for me!

It really is quite a lot of fun if you (or your friend!) can afford it.  I wrote down my own AAR at the time, which I paste below.  This was before I learned how to fly real planes, however, which accounts in large measure for the difference between my impressions today and my impressions back then!


Oldman’s Aerial Adventure

Heh heh. They'll have to pry the grin off my face with a chisel.

Background, for those who didn’t catch it before.  In celebration of Oldman’s attainment of the age of 50 years, an achievement which many thought to be impossible, a very good friend gave me a day at Air Combat USA.  http://www.aircombatusa.com/  The organization is based on the Left Coast, but takes its show on the road.  This appointment was for Saturday, 2 November 2002, at Lancaster, Pennsylvania.  They brought two of the SIAI Marchetti 260s to Lancaster. One instructor, one dweeb in each.

I leave home at 6:15 - in a cloud of snow.  Not a good sign, but soon the sun pops out and life is good.  I get to the airport after about 1.25 hours travel time and am early.  A bit later my opponent pulls up to the FBO in a late-model fire engine red pickup truck, saunters out, age about 30, good looking. Took one glance at me, you could see "breakfast" go through his mind.

This is definitely an ex-Navy operation; all three instructors (they rotated) were retired Navy or Marine; all former A4 pilots in this case. My instructor, believe it or not, was call sign “Buzzard.”  Got the briefing, learned the parachute, walked out to the planes, took off.

Drill was for the pickup truck guy (who we will call Honcho for purposes of this missive) to lead while I practiced flying at his low 4:00. Immediate overcontrol problems on my part; looked like Gomer Pyle in an airplane.  Finally got it so I could hold it within 50 feet up-down-sideways. Blue Angels will not be calling me soon.

Then follow Honcho through some 20-30 degree turns, left, right, left right. Practice low yo-yos, high yo-yos. Things are going good. Time for Honcho to drop into trail, follow me through some turns. One turn to the left. One turn to the right. Then Honcho's instructor comes on over the radio:

"Uh...I think we have to go back to base. He's not gonna make it."

My instructor is appalled. "Whaddaya mean he can't make it??" (He's an ex-Marine, remember.)

"He's really sick."

"Can't you just do a merge or two so I can work on the yo-yos?"

"Well...uh....ok, maybe some easy ones."

So I practiced that for a bit, but we were all acutely conscious that we were torturing poor Honcho, who by now had barfed, not once, but twice, all tied up in nice little plastic bags with twist-ties. So it's back to the airport, this time we're lead. I look down to the right, see Honcho's helmet lolling against the canopy. He looks dead. He probably wishes he was.
 
Landed. Honcho apologizes, looks around to see if there's a gun nearby that he can use on himself, ultimately takes his fancy truck and drives back to Maryland. What to do for an opponent for the surviving dweeb? Nothing for it but to use Honcho's instructor, call sign Pygmy, 35 years in the Navy starting in 1955, 4000 hours just in A4s, 183 combat missions over Viet Nam. You can see that he's worried.

So up we go in the afternoon. One of the guys in the flight before us has also barfed, big man, pale as a ghost, but not suicidal like the Honcho. I am feeling so superior.

Practice the formation flying on the way out....still not getting any calls from the demo teams. Practiced some lag rolls (fun!), then it was time for COMBAT!

Pygmy about one mile out on the left; both planes turn toward each other, speed up to about 180 kts each, closing at 360, meet co-alt, wings level (these were the rules of engagement - no lead turn stuff). I go up and left in an easy immel, Pygmy circles down to the left, I'm still overcontrolling, plane is shuddering, my instructor is saying "ease back ease back ease back," the nose goes down as Pygmy comes back up. Up and down after each other like this, Pygmy decides to reverse and give the Oldman an easy shot, which the Oldman happily takes. Smoke trails from Pygmy, the crowd cheers.

On the second flight Pygmy has decided to let the Oldman know that the first kill was because of easy treatment. This time the turns are probably 3g (interesting that the speed bleeds off so quickly that you can't get more than that before you hit stall), I'm overcontrolling as always, shuddering in the stall, Pygmy is on me within a few seconds, and I'm trailing smoke, which is also filling the cockpit. Time to open the hood a few inches, let some of that cool fall air (-22 C) into the plane. OK, so he got me, big deal, there's always fight number three.

To compress this story, it is enough to say that I am doing a very good job at situational awareness, a pretty decent job at staying in his rear quarters, overcontrol is my big problem. Of the six fights, I am victor in four, although we all know that Pygmy is not perceiving this as a fight for his life. On my first pullout from a dive, looking straight up through the canopy at Pygmy, my head suddenly weighs 4.5 times its normal fathead self, and I think it is going to pop off and land in the luggage compartment behind me. Still sore (just a little) today. Otherwise, its just like the computer games.

On the way home, oddly enough, the Oldman begins to feel a bit queasy himself. Would not do to barf after all the fun we've been making of the Honcho, so I busy myself looking at the scenery. Amazingly, I'm able to hold a pretty good formation by this time, which is fortunate, because I find that watching Pygmy’s plane makes me feel sicker.

Land the plane, the queasiness goes away instantly, I am my old confident self and am also walking two inches above the surface of the pavement. Shake hands with Pygmy, who is, to my surprise, not a real happy camper. My instructor thinks it's because he had to work too hard. I wonder if it’s because I almost hit him.  I don't care. I could do this all day, unless I were to get sick like the weak people.

Plainly one of the best days of my life. Am wondering how I can afford to buy two of these planes, at $500k each.

Observations from the AW/AH perspective:

My Real Airplane experience was very much like the transition from AW to AH.  The general maneuvers, SA and techniques are the same.  But the plane takes getting used to.  A lot more getting used to than I could do in a couple of hours.

First impression: I need Big T to set the stick scaling.  I doubt that the top of the stick ever moved more than two inches during any of my maneuvers, and usually lots less than that, and I was still overcontrolling.  It really is just a matter of the amount of pressure you apply.  The joysticks on these planes, FWIW, were, exactly, the old Thrustmaster FCS, complete with hat switch (which I never thought to ask about) (although I’m pretty sure it didn’t control the views).

Second impression: The combat looks just like it does with the early war planes in AH.  Same speeds, same distances, visually, at least.  I was very comfortable with that.

Funny impression: You think of it the way you think of the game.  When I was looking up, I thought, distractedly, “Hey, this is the 5-key view.”  When I was communicating, I though “Intercom is button 3, radio is button two.”  After we passed on the merge, I though “Raise head, look kp 2-4.”

There was much less feel to the planes than I expected.  I never did really get a sense of when I was about to hit the stall, until the plane began to shudder.  My instructor actually got a bit agitated about this.  Marines, what are you gonna do with them?

Main computer sim impression: Flying AW and AH helped a lot.  You know what you want to do, and, pretty much, the plane does it, just like in the game.  I was complimented on my ability to keep the other plane in sight (thank you, HR, for your post long ago on the AOL boards) and to stay (usually) (well, a lot, at least) behind him.  I didn’t have to think about what I should do next, it came naturally because of all those years of virtual reality practice. 
And let me tell you, playing AH is a lot cheaper than playing the real thing.

- oldman

Offline Dichotomy

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2011, 11:16:24 AM »
Seriously one of the best and most informative threads I've ever seen on this board.  I vote a sticky on this one.
JG11 - Dicho37Only The Proud Only The Strong AH Players who've passed on :salute

Offline ink

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2011, 11:30:08 AM »
cool story oldman....except the weak people comment of course....:-)    I am far from weak, and I puked my guts out, and will absolutly go back up again when I get the chance, just wont eat that morning.   was a great story non the less    ~Paul

Offline jocrp6

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2011, 01:43:15 PM »
WOW!  can you imagin the feeling of going from a few hour's in a Tiger moth to a Spitfire with no backseat help?
and the same goes for the T-6 trainer,  then shipped out,  call your name- here's your plane number. God-speed,

Offline DERK13

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2011, 02:53:22 PM »
the weather is such a huge factor in real life, sad to see AH is more of a game than a simulator. But if we had wind that would be a different story

RedTail
 

Offline CAP1

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2011, 03:03:25 PM »
the weather is such a huge factor in real life, sad to see AH is more of a game than a simulator. But if we had wind that would be a different story

i know grizz is gonna jump on me for this......but we often times have wind in the ava. i've won, and i've lost fights because of it. it changes the whole dynamic of the fight.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2011, 03:26:50 PM »
I remember a story from a WWII pilot at The Museum of Flight in Seattle.  He talked about how most people think about the danger of WWII flying as being enemy planes and flak and don't know that weather was a major danger back then as well.

To illustrate, he told the story of one mission where his flight of P-51's went up, and they were supposed to rendezvous with bombers over France.  The weather was horrible, and they were in clouds and heavy turbulence most of the way.  They were all formed up tight on the lead because of poor visibility and thus watching him and concentrating on formation instead of looking at their own instruments.

At one point, in the soup, he saw one of the planes peel off formation and instantly disappear in the murk; then another did the same.  The pilot giving the talk then looked down at his instruments and saw that he was in a steep diving bank, and he pulled off the lead to get his own plane back under control, realising that the lead had developed vertigo and was out of control.

He flew around in the region where they were supposed to meet up with the bombers (as best he could figure), but it was so bad that there was no chance of spotting them and forming up, so after a bit, he headed back to base alone.

He was the only one of his flight who made it back.

Offline CAP1

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2011, 03:42:51 PM »
if you want to feel what that feels like.....have a CFI take you up for a little bit of unusual attitude recovery training. it's pretty friggin scary how easy it is to let that happen.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2011, 05:07:30 PM »
Yep, I remember wearing the hood in flight school, closing eyes, and being told "Turn left.  OK.  Turn right.  Turn left again" and hearing the engine start to wind up.  Then opening eyes on the instrument panel to do recovery.

Offline rvflyer

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2011, 05:24:38 PM »
Yep, I remember wearing the hood in flight school, closing eyes, and being told "Turn left.  OK.  Turn right.  Turn left again" and hearing the engine start to wind up.  Then opening eyes on the instrument panel to do recovery.

90 percent of my instrument training was at night with a hood
on. I could just barely see out of the left corner of my left eye
 and see lights on the ground, this made me feel like I was in a right
turn it was really hard to fly the gauges straight and level
while you could swear you were turning right.
Tour 70 2005 to present

Offline CAP1

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2011, 06:08:46 PM »
Yep, I remember wearing the hood in flight school, closing eyes, and being told "Turn left.  OK.  Turn right.  Turn left again" and hearing the engine start to wind up.  Then opening eyes on the instrument panel to do recovery.

 yep. that's part of what i'm talking about.


 i had an instructor put me through that 3 or 4 times.....but he did it a little differently. he had me close my eyes, and let my head hang, as if i were asleep. he'd then climb, descend, accelerate, turn, etc....kinda like a big roller coaster ride.
 then he'd let go(always with the airplane in a fairly ungood attitude), and say recover. i had to open my eyes, and recover on instruments only. after 3 or 4 times of this, he said he was satasfied with how i handled them, took the controls, while i removed the foggles. he gave me back the controls, and told me to head towards atco raceway(our practice area is a little east of there).
 i established my heading, set the throttle, and trimmed the plane. now he starts asking me this, and that. as i answer, i look at him while i'm talking. then he asks me "why are we turning?". i said we're not...look....as i pointed at atco raceway now off to our 2 oclock.

 what happened was that it felt to me like we were turning, and i kept just automatically correcting, without(rather stupidly) paying much attention to anything else. that was the first and last time i let anything distract me from my flying when i was in the left seat. i felt like an ass, but he said it's fairly common after the drill he gave me.
 i look back on it, and can sorta laugh at myself now though.
ingame 1LTCAP
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