Author Topic: Lazy 30mm question  (Read 4060 times)

Offline grizz441

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7000
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2011, 01:45:30 PM »
ah i see. well at risk of sounding luft-noobish i guess that means the shorter the convergence, the higher up the 30mm points? right now i have my head position all the way up on the k4 and convergence set at 650. it works, but dead 6 i always have to aim at the top of the enemies cockpit to get a direct hit. i think its my head position but it could be the 650 convergence

Shorter the convergence, the lower the 30mm points, and the higher you have to point it.

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2011, 04:27:29 PM »
ah i see. well at risk of sounding luft-noobish i guess that means the shorter the convergence, the higher up the 30mm points? right now i have my head position all the way up on the k4 and convergence set at 650. it works, but dead 6 i always have to aim at the top of the enemies cockpit to get a direct hit. i think its my head position but it could be the 650 convergence

Grizz is right, you should need to aim low, not high.  Your head position should make you shoot high, too, so you should really need to aim low.

It seems odd that you'd need to aim at the top of his cockpit.

MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2011, 04:41:04 PM »
The reason you shoot high is because physics works that way: velocity in each dimension is independent.  A flying bullet will drop to the ground as fast as one dropped out of your hand. The only difference is how far forward the flying one goes.  And if you decompose any shot's angle, you get separate vertical and horizontal components, where 45deg happens to be the initial angle (the combination of initial horizontal and vertical velocity) where a bullet will land furthest.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/traj.html#tra12
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Der Jude

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 158
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #78 on: January 25, 2011, 02:22:19 PM »
i dont think i shoot far enough out in the k4 or g14 for physics to be a factor. i shoot just before the area where if you fire the tater explosion will kill you. sounds like the line of sight between my head position and the gunsight is not intersecting the vector of the tater where i think it is. i will play around with it based on this new information you all have given me.  thanks
Game ID: Judisch
Kommando Nowotny - Nowotny Schwarm "White 19"
Til Schweiger Fan Club
ZLA- "Dont Focke Wulf Us!"
Malta Scenario - Comrade Jew

Offline angels10

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 76
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2011, 10:37:08 AM »
I have to respectfully disagree with your post on the inference of the sensitivity of convergence.  You make some good points, but ultimately, convergence has minimal importance with shooting a proper Mk108.  I will list the order of importance to prove my point:

1.  Shot setup.  Creating a close quarters <200yd crossing shot.  This gives you the best chance to hit the target consistently.
2.  Firing early and in front of your target on center.  He will fly through your rounds in pieces most of the time.  I have to disagree with you here when you say he can easily squeeze through your rounds if not timed properly.  It can happen, but it is very unlikely.  The rate of fire on mk108 is around 6.5/second.  It fires slow but not that slow.  
3.  Last comes convergence.  If you are firing early, on center, and in front of your target, I'm sorry, but the probability of missing him is slim to none regardless of what your convergence is set at with this approach.  Convergence will only affect the fringe shots, that aren't on center, and this is ultimately a crap shoot, since sometimes you miss high and other times you miss low.

Having said all that, I prefer 350 because it still gives me the opportunity to land a long range tater instead of just dropping dramatically at the 450yd level.



MK 108 cannon
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The MK 108 machine cannon
Type Autocannon
Place of origin Germany
Service history
In service 1943–1945
Used by Nazi Germany
Wars World War II
Production history
Designer Rheinmetall-Borsig
Designed 1940
Manufacturer Rheinmetall-Borsig
Produced 1943–1945
Specifications
Weight 58 kilograms (130 lb)
Length 1,057 millimetres (41.6 in)
Barrel length 23 inches (580 mm)
Cartridge 30×90RB mm steel casing
Caliber 30 mm
Action Blowback operation
Rate of fire 650 rounds/min :headscratch:
Muzzle velocity 540 m/s (1,770 ft/s) :headscratch:

The MK 108 (German: Maschinenkanone—"machine cannon") was a 30 mm caliber autocannon manufactured in Germany during World War II by Rheinmetall-Borsig for use in aircraft.


The weapon was developed as a private venture by the company in 1940 and was submitted to the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM—Reich Aviation Ministry) in response to a 1942 requirement for a heavy aircraft weapon for use against the Allied bombers appearing en masse in German skies by then.




>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THIS IS WHAT CAUGHT MY ATTENTION THE MOST WAS THE AMOUNT OF 20MM IT TOOK TO SHOOT DOWN BOMBERS<<<<<<<<<<<<



Testing verified that the autocannon was well-suited to this role, requiring on average just four hits with high-explosive ammunition to bring down a heavy bomber such as a B-17 Flying Fortress or B-24 Liberator and a single hit to down a fighter. In comparison, the otherwise excellent 20 mm MG 151/20 required an average of 25 hits to down a B-17.

The MK 108 was quickly ordered into production and was installed in a variety of Luftwaffe fighter aircraft. It saw first operational service in late autumn 1943 with the Bf 110G-2 bomber destroyers and in the Bf 109G-6/U4.
[edit] Design details
[edit] Ammunition

The cannon used specially-developed 30×90RB mm ammunition—30 mm calibre, 90 mm case length, rebated/reduced rim. Unlike most other weapon rounds, which used traditional brass for the case, the MK 108's ammunition used steel cases. Several types of ammunition were developed, including practice, armor-piercing, high-explosive and incendiary. In operation, however, two major ammunition types were used: Minengeschoß ("mine-shell") and high-explosive incendiary. The Minengeschoß was made by drawn steel (the same way brass cartridges are made) instead of being forged and machined as was the usual practice for cannon shells. This resulted in a shell with a thin but strong wall, which hence had a much larger cavity in which to pack a much larger explosive or incendiary charge than was otherwise possible. The incendiary rounds were also often fitted with a hydrostatic fuse, which detonated when it came in contact with liquid. This was to ensure that the round did not merely explode on the target aircraft's skin, which would cause little damage, but instead penetrated and exploded when it came into contact with fuel or coolant inside the fuel tanks or radiators respectively.

ANGELS10  :angel:

Offline grizz441

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7000
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2011, 12:44:07 PM »
For muzzle velocity i was going off of this post by lusche:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280043.0.html

For rounds/sec I was going off of in game test from SunBat.

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #81 on: January 26, 2011, 07:36:48 PM »

Wow, that's awful velocity.  My flintlock rifle does better than that.

That's pretty decent RoF though, 10.8 rounds/second.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Vinkman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #82 on: February 01, 2011, 03:53:28 PM »
Then this as a technical simulation seems to be much less concerned about faithfull accuracy at one of the two ends of some wheapons systems since there is no mechanical way to set the elevation above 0-datum motor line with the MK108 or MG151/20 in any motor cannon mounted aircraft Germany produced. At this stage in HiTech's coading genius I doubt he would have any trouble revamping the affected wheapons systems to the manufacturers mounting specifications.

But, again maybe HTC has never had the manuals translated I'm refrencing since there is so much english language translated and post WW2 U.S. government technical data available to coad these systems with. And it seems this audience is vested completely in the results of sticking the pointy stick in the mammoth, in this mammoth hunting simulation, rather than the process behind the pointy stick getting there is a narrow focus worm hole rather than direct arm power.

BFG9000, Chain guns and particule beam sniper rifles anyone?


Bustr, Are you saying that it is known from the links you posted that the back of the cannon could not be shimmed down? Per my calculations it would only take an angle of 1.036 deg on a MK108 to get a 30mm to cross the firing datum at muzzle velocity of 1770 ft/s.  If the cannon, from tip of the barrel to the rearmost point, was 10ft long, then the rearmost point would only have to drop 2 inches. That strikes me as a reasonable number, and I can't see anything in the schematics that says that's impossible.

Can you clarify?
Who is John Galt?

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11617
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #83 on: February 01, 2011, 04:09:13 PM »
So you set the gunsight to the fixed position cannon, then you set the adjustable machine guns to the sight position? Do you end up with the same thing we have now?